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Frage:
Non-specific pronouns  
von Jever (GB/FR), 2007-07-20, 12:08  like dislike  Spam?  
Hi,

I'm translating some terms and conditions and have the following sentence:

Der Käufer erkennt sie für den vorliegenden Vertrag und auch für alle zukünftigen Geschäfte als für ihn verbindlich an.

which I have translated as:

The purchaser accepts them as binding on them in respect of the current contract and also for all future transactions.

My problem is the pronoun to use for the purchaser. The purchaser may be a him, a her or an it (in the case of a company) but it him/her/it looks daft, so I've used the blanket 'them'. Has anyone come across this before?

I usually don't worry about using 'they' in the unknown situation, but this is quite an inportant document.

What also makes me curious is the 'ihn' in German. Is 'Er' assumed to cover all in the unknown situation?

Thanks for any help.

Jever
Antwort: 
yes, in some legal/official situations, the mail gender is used. Why  #245698
von Wilfred (DE), 2007-07-20, 12:14  like dislike  Spam?  
not say 'the purchaser accepts them as binding' and leave out 'on them'?
Antwort: 
TYPO: ..male gender  #245699
von Wilfred (DE), 2007-07-20, 12:15  like dislike  Spam?  
Antwort: 
Just realised....  #245701
von Jever (GB/FR), 2007-07-20, 12:17  like dislike  Spam?  
ihn is used to match the 'der' of the Kaeufer, which would still apply if the purchaser was a Gesellschaft.

Still doesn't solve my English problem though....
Antwort: 
HI wilf  #245702
von Jever (GB/FR), 2007-07-20, 12:18  like dislike  Spam?  
Trouble is, the same issue arises too many times and would endanger impacting on the meaning if I chopped it too much.

Would be interesting to know, as well.
Antwort: 
für ihn verbindlich  #245703
von jim (GB), 2007-07-20, 12:20  like dislike  Spam?  
You cannot leave the limitation or specification of 'binding' out of a legal document: I suggest 'binding on themselves' which is how I read this.
Antwort: 
how about: 'The purchasing party/parties ...'  #245704
von Wilfred (DE), 2007-07-20, 12:23  like dislike  Spam?  
Antwort: 
Hi Jever  #245707
von Riddle (DE), 2007-07-20, 12:41  like dislike  Spam?  62.134.88....
Ist der Käufer als solcher nicht im Kopf des Agreement genannt? Also z.B. Herr XY oder Firma AB (hereinafter referred to as the 'purchaser'').

Dann wüßtest Du ja, ob es sich um eine Einzelperson oder ein Unternehmen handelt. Dementsprechend würde ich das Pronomen wählen. Im Falle einer Frau 'she' bzw. 'her', im Falle eines Mannes 'he', 'him', im Falle einer Firma oder Organisation 'it', its'
Antwort: 
I like purchasing party  #245711
von Jever (GB/FR), 2007-07-20, 12:52  like dislike  Spam?  
That would work better with 'them/themself'. Think I'll go with that.

Hi Riddle,

It's a general set of terms rather than a specific set, probably to go on the back of an invoice, so no-one is named.

I wonder if there's an English grammar website somewhere that explains the rule for this situation.

Might give it a google.

Thanks all.
Antwort: 
Seems to be a contentious problem with no solution  #245718
von Jever (GB/FR), 2007-07-20, 13:34  like dislike  Spam?  
as discussed here:

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O29-GENERICPRONOUN.html

People seem to take offence at 'they', but I think it's appropriate as I also want it to include 'it'.

And I thought there was a solution to every problem...
Antwort: 
The purchaser accepts them as binding in personam with respect to the current contract and also for all future transactions.  #245757
von Proteus, 2007-07-20, 14:47  like dislike  Spam?  194.166.223...
Legally: Für ihn / sie verbindlich = schuldrechtlich verbindlich = binding in personam

As distinguished from 'legally binding' (based on acts of parliament etc. which address all and sundry or an abstract number of people) or 'rights in rem' which anybody must respect without his prior explicit consent (so-called in-rem effect / dingliche Wirkung).

Google: "rights in rem" site:uk

Google: "in rem effect" dingliche Wirkung
Google: "in rem effect"
Antwort: 
Instances of in-rem effect: rights of landed or intellectual property  #245775
von Proteus, 2007-07-20, 15:17  like dislike  Spam?  194.166.223...

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