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Godeffroy flag  
von Catesse (AU), Last modified: 2009-07-05, 04:30  like dislike  Spam?  
Sorry; there is no category for this.
Does anyone know the significance of the nationality flag flown by some vessels of the shipping line J.C. Godeffroy & S.? (ca 1850-60?) I have tracked some 40 flags that it is NOT. (On the pictures that I have, Alfred and Beausite are wearing the Hamburg flag, but La Rochelle is not.)
It is not the Godeffroy house flag, which is a golden falcon. It is not the Hamburg flag. It is not the flag of the North German Federation or the Confederation of the Rhine. It is not the flag of any State or city that I can find.
Unfortunately, I have not seen it in colour. It has a dark background with a white cross, symmetrical vertically and horizontally (not like the Scandinavian flags), and an unidentifiable squiggle in the upper hoist quarter.
I should like to have this information for a paper I shall be giving at a seminar later in the year. I could manage without it, but I like to do a job properly.
Maybe I am chasing a chimaera, and the painting of La Rochelle is an artist's error.
fahne  #443414
von mesmer, 2009-07-05, 04:33  like dislike  Spam?  209.30.91....
Haette da Wikipedia(EN): Saint_Piran's_Flag anzubieten, Vielleicht ist es ein Treffer.
fahne2  #443415
von mesmer, 2009-07-05, 04:35  like dislike  Spam?  209.30.91....
nachtrag, sieje auch hier:
Wikipedia(EN): Flag_of_Saint_David
mesmer  #443417
von Catesse (AU), 2009-07-05, 04:42  like dislike  Spam?  
That wasn't half quick!
The general outline of the St David's flag is correct. That sort of cross, with something in the corner.
However, I would not be able to account for why a Hamburg ship should be flying a Welsh flag - not even as a courtesy flag in a Welsh harbour. (It would have been using the Union Jack.)
Flaggen mit Kreuzen:  #443422
von Bella-Wien, 2009-07-05, 04:54  like dislike  Spam?  85.127.170...
flag3  #443425
von mesmer, 2009-07-05, 04:57  like dislike  Spam?  209.30.91....
"why a Hamburg ship should be flying a Welsh flag " that's for you to answer - me dunno..... ☺☺☺
But the Union Jack could have been substituted by Wikipedia(EN): St_George%27s_Cross
Let us know what the final verdict will be!
Bella mesmer  #443427
von Catesse (AU), 2009-07-05, 05:15  like dislike  Spam?  
4; Bella. What a splendid site!
It looks rather like the Order of St John flag. White cross on dark ground. (But I don't know whether it was red.) Defaced in the upper hoist corner. (But I cannot tell what the motif is.)
4; mesmer. I have a few months to think about it, but in view of the fact that it is a very small reproduction of an old painting, and the artist could have made a slight mistake, I think I shall chicken out and not mention it at all. I have plenty of other material; but I was considering being very brave and trying a Power Point presentation with quite a few visuals.
There are references in contemporary reports (ca 1870) to Apia harbour being crowded with Godeffroy vessels flying the flag of the North German Confederation, but that is definitely not what is in the La Rochelle picture.
La Rochelle  #443431
von mesmer, 2009-07-05, 05:44  like dislike  Spam?  209.30.91....
Habe mir mal das Schiff angeschaut, die Flagge is einigermaßen zu erkennen.
Vielleicht hat jemand bessere Augen! ☺ Rochelle (ship)&ImageNumber=108513&Publisher=John Oxley Library, State Library of Queensland&url=
mesmer  #443432
von Catesse (AU), 2009-07-05, 06:10  like dislike  Spam?  
Having run out of options re German flags, I did some lateral thinking and followed up the idea that maybe this was La Rochelle after she had been sold to Sweden in 1881 and renamed Saturnus. Have a look at the Swedish-Norwegian Jack in the following site and let me know what you think.
stimmt  #443433
von mesmer, 2009-07-05, 06:21  like dislike  Spam?  209.30.91....
too fast w/Enter  #443434
von mesmer, 2009-07-05, 06:27  like dislike  Spam?  209.30.91....
Hatte dies auch schon gelesen...
und da steht Helsinborg, Finland. Danach hatte ich mir schon die finnischen Fahnen angeschaut, but did not question the fact that Helsingborg liegt in Sweden and not in Finland.
Nochmals, die schwedisch-norwegische Union Fahne scheint mit grosser Wahrscheinlichkeit die zu sein die auf dem Bild zu sehen ist. Foer mich ist das raetzel geloest! ☺
Antwort:  #443435
von Bella-Wien, 2009-07-05, 06:31  like dislike  Spam?  85.127.170...
Johann Cesar Gedoffroy

* 01.Juli 1813 in Kiel
† 10. Februar 1885

Hamburger Großhändler, Chef der Firma "J.C. Gedefroy & Sohn" , die den Handel im westlichen Stillen Ozean bis 1879 beherrschte. Er legte damit die wirtschaftlichen Grundlagen zum Erwerb der Kolonie.
saturnus vormals La Rochelle  #443436
von mesmer, 2009-07-05, 06:57  like dislike  Spam?  209.30.91....
und die saga ended im Bermuda Triangle ☺☺☺
Bild der Kaiserlichen Marineflagge  #443437
von Bella-Wien, 2009-07-05, 07:01  like dislike  Spam?  85.127.170...
Catesse  #443438
von mesmer, 2009-07-05, 07:20  like dislike  Spam?  209.30.91....
and here is another picture of the "Saturnus" maybe useful for your research ...
Verkauf der La Rochelle erst 1881, Flagge mit dem mittigen Kreuz daher noch von der D. Kaisermarine, oder?  #443439
von Bella-Wien, 2009-07-05, 07:41  like dislike  Spam?  85.127.170...
Ich muss jetzt leider abbrechen, bis am Abend!
mesmer Bella  #443442
von Catesse (AU), Last modified: 2009-07-05, 08:34  like dislike  Spam?  
4; mesmer: Yes, I think I shall go with the Swedish-Norwegian connection.
4; Bella: La Rochelle (aka Saturnus) was never a warship. She was built by a Godeffroy dockyard for the Godeffroy Reederei to carry Godeffroy cargoes from Godeffroy plantations and mines to Godeffroy processing plants. That firm really was something, until it overreached itself.
I very much appreciate your assistance; without it I might never have found the 'flags of the world' site.
Some 25 years ago, I was planning to write a book on the Godeffroy firm, but family illness and death intervened, and then I was given a very interesting commission. I had already compiled a database of all Godeffroy ships, every voyage they made, every captain who worked for them. (as far as records would allow.) I had been writing to Carl Alfred Godeffroy, and he sent me an up-to-date Godeffroy genealogy. But by the time my problems and the work in hand were out of the way, the world and I had both moved on.
This forthcoming dissertation is a much more modest affair; about half an hour on the contribution of the Godeffroy line to the development of Queensland. The immigrants aboard La Rochelle on her two trips to Queensland made quite a large contribution, and in the German branch of the Queensland Genealogical Society there is a group of people who still define themselves as descendants of Godeffroy migrants.
BTW: It was thanks to Godeffroy's influence with Bismarck that in 1914 Queensland had a German naval wireless station and a naval fuelling depot little more than a hop, step and jump across Torres Strait.
godeffroy  #468857
von billy, 2009-10-17, 11:05  like dislike  Spam?  60.228.21...
hi this is for bella
godeffroy  #468858
von billy, 2009-10-17, 11:08  like dislike  Spam?  60.228.21...
hi this is for bella, i am very interested in the godeffroy and their ships. would it be possible tto get some information from you..
billy  #468876
von Catesse (AU), 2009-10-17, 12:54  like dislike  Spam?  
Not wishing to steal Bella's thunder, but I do not think she is particularly interested in Godeffroy & Sohn. I see you are - apparently - in Sydney, on Telstraintranet.. I am in Brisbane. I wanted to know about La Rochelle's flag because I am preparing a paper on Godeffroy immigrants for a seminar at the University of Queensland next month.
For general purposes, you can find masses of information on the Godeffroy company and Godeffroy ships and Godeffroy migrants, even if you restrict a google search to Australian sites. The genealogical societies and family history societies in most capital cities could also give you a lot of assistance, particularly if you pay a membership fee.
And please note that I do not respond cordially to people who are not polite and considerate enough to use capital letters in the correct places.
Godeffroy  #468901
von billy, 2009-10-17, 16:02  like dislike  Spam?  60.228.21...
Hello Catesse, sorry about my punctuation. I do thank you for this information though.

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