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Frage:
"primary school" is not just British!  
von Kiskunfelegyhaza (US), 2011-05-12, 00:10  like dislike  Spam?  
The recent move to label all of the "primary school" entries does not hold up to international or even American usage. The American Heritage Dictionary defines a primary school as a school comprising kindergarten and grades 1-3 or 1-4. It does not say the term is especially British, and the American Heritage Dictionary is a standard dictionary in the US. This definition is exactly the definition of a "Grundschule." The US is replete with primary schools both public and private, as is the entire world. Yes, here at home we generally talk of elementary schools, but not always, and internationally we talk just as often of primary schools. It is not the case that a Brit would use primary school whereas an American would not. This makes the new [Br.] tags that have been applied to all of these terms inaccurate. I would love to see them go!!!
Antwort: 
?  #596647
von romy (CZ/GB), 2011-05-12, 00:18  like dislike  Spam?  
Are you talking about dict.cc entries? Then you should label your comment as DICT, not EN, and provide a link to some example you want to have changed. Or do you want to start a disussion about the general usage of [Br.] tagging of this term (all over the Internet and in various publications)? I don't quite understand which response you are looking for.
Antwort: 
von uffie (GH/KI), 2011-05-12, 01:13  like dislike  Spam?  
 #596659
yes, I think some examples might be useful.... tagging is often a problem, because many German voters are not aware of the differences between AE and BE/AUS usage.

This needs to be tidied up, of course.
Antwort: 
dict.cc: primary school  #596670
von Kiskunfelegyhaza (US), 2011-05-12, 04:51  like dislike  Spam?  
Antwort: 
Grundschule  #596674
von romy (CZ/GB), Last modified: 2011-05-12, 06:04  like dislike  Spam?  
The German term does not include Kindergarten, but starts with grade 1. It can include as many as 9 grades. See: de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grundschule
Hence, the American understanding of the term "primary school" does not match the European or Australian understanding of this term. Therefore, the tag [Brit.] is spot on and correct throughout. In my humble opinion.
Antwort: 
Usage in the US isn't consistent   #596689
von Lisa4dict loggedout, 2011-05-12, 07:59  like dislike  Spam?  99.11.160....
If you offer it as a translation term a German translator might think the US audience would understand the term the same way he/she does.  I've most often found "primary school" used for K-1 which would be equivalent to German "Vorschule" AFAIK  
If we do offer the term as AE we should definitely tag it with grades.
Antwort: 
The problem is,  #596696
von ddr (AT), 2011-05-12, 08:15  like dislike  Spam?  
we have no very clear concept as to what is Br. and what is Am.
Br. seems to include all variants used in the former commonwealth, if they are used in GB as well. Okay.
But Am. (or no Am.)  is sometimes used for terms preferred in the US, sometimes for official terms, sometimes for words or spellings used occasionally in the US or parts of it as well. (Remember the theatre reopenings?)
In our European way of thinking, there can be only one correct term for primary school / elementary school per country, because it is a state thing, even if, as is the case in Germany, the term comprises slightly different concepts (4 years, 6 years, couldn't find 9 years, Romy, for present day use). So if it is elementary school in the US, it can't be primary school as well (in our mental make up).
Question seems to be: if a German speaker calls an elementary school primary school in the US, will he be understood?
Chat:     
9 years - ddr  #596732
von romy (CZ/GB), Last modified: 2011-05-12, 09:48  like dislike  Spam?  
This is not particularly a German connotation, rather a Czech one. In the Czech Republic, the basic school for everyone was (and perhaps still is) the "devitiletka" - which means, literally, the "nine-years-thing". That term is what I used to translate with "Grundschule" into German, and equalled to "primary school" when I switched to English. Although a German "Grundschule" may cover only a maximum of 8 years, as Australian primary schools do, too.
Antwort: 
Woran man wieder einmal sieht,  #596746
von ddr (AT), 2011-05-12, 10:13  like dislike  Spam?  
dass es bei Schulen, wenns international wird, sehr kompliziert ist.
Die derzeitige deutsche Grundschule ist m. W. und auch laut Wiki maximal  6jährig (in zwei Bundesländern) sonst 4jährig. Danach ist es Hauptschule, Realschule oder Gymnasium. Aber natürlich kann man den Begriff Grundschule auf andere Länder bezogen auch als Grund-Schule, die jeder besuchen muss, verstehen. So ähnlich ist es wahrscheinlich/vielleicht  auch mit der primary school. (Aber in GB heißt die Grundschule/Volksschule/Elementarschule eben primary school.)
Am besten wäre es doch wohl, einen eigenen Eintrag (oder mehrere) für die Am. Bedeutung von primary school zu machen.
Antwort: 
Das ist nicht so leicht!  #596852
von Kiskunfelegyhaza (US), 2011-05-12, 16:11  like dislike  Spam?  
Individual uses of a term from state to state or municipality to municipality take nothing away from the fact that "primary school" is an international term with multiple meanings and is as readily understood in the US as it is anywhere else. If we want encyclopedia-length entries based on individual schools, so be it, but the meaning of "Grundschule" is as flexible as the meaning of "primary school," so to exclude the term from American use makes no sense. If I as an American want to talk about a primary school in Argentina, the international nature of the term is obvious. [Br.] should be reserved for expressions and spellings that would be wrong in the US. But there is nothing wrong with the term "primary school" here in reference to any early type of school in Germany, India, or Laos. The problem with the [Br.] tag is that it makes it look like "primary school" is not used in the US, and that is fundamentally wrong. It has just as many meanings here as it has in other countries, regardless of the design of local school systems.
Antwort: 
But  #596866
von ddr (AT), 2011-05-12, 16:51  like dislike  Spam?  
in Germany "Grundschule" means first of all the German school for 6 to 10 (or 12) years old pupils. And the equivalent to this German "Grundschule" is called "primary school" in GB. How will you give users this basic bit of information, if you take the widest possible meanings of Grundschule and primary school?

The same applies to Volksschule in Austria and Elementarschule in Switzerland. They are names for a clearly defined type of school which corrensponds with the British primary school (and US elementary school?).
Therefore I think, a second entry with primary school / Grundschule [generell, international] or sth. of the kind might be useful.
Antwort: 
Kiskun - what about tagging it [esp Br.] ?  #596888
von uffie (GH/KI), 2011-05-12, 20:33  like dislike  Spam?  
do you think this would help?
Antwort: 
Volksschule, Grundschule und Primarschule, in its international understaning  #596978
von climatepatrol (CH), Last modified: 2011-05-13, 09:29  like dislike  Spam?  
4;ufriend
How about "esp. Br."? Yes, that's what it says in my print version of PONS Großwörterbuch Englisch 2005.

Here is a copy of my long comment along with my vote:
http://contribute.dict.cc/?action=edit&id=727580

---Begin of comment---
4;Kis: Thank you for the ressources you provided regarding the use of 'primary school' on both continents. This additional information however doesn't seem to back up your cause regarding the use of "primary school" in the US.

World English Dictionary
primary school
— n
1. (in Britain) a school for children below the age of 11. It is usually divided into an infant and a junior section
2. (in the US and Canada) a school equivalent to the first three or four grades of elementary school, sometimes including a kindergarten

Collins English Dictionary - Complete & Unabridged 10th Edition
2009 © William Collins Sons & Co. Ltd. 1979, 1986 © HarperCollins
Publishers 1998, 2000, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2009
Cite This Source
Encyclopedia

primary school

in many countries, an elementary school. It is the preferred term in such countries as Great Britain and France (French ecole primaire) and in most publications of the United Nations Educational, Scientific, and Cultural Organization. In the United States it is not a synonym but denotes only the first years of elementary education-specifically, kindergarten and grades 1 through 3.
http://dictionary.reference.co...

In my opinion, the [Br.] tag disambiguates the meaning "1.(in Britain) a school for children below the age of 11 quite well as opposed to "In the United States it is not a synonym but denotes only the first years of elementary education-specifically, kindergarten and grades 1 through 3. The latter is not what "Grundschule" (generic term in Germany, Austria, Switzerland) means.
Please also note the definition of "Volksschule" as being historically a public institution, i.e. for ordinary folks, unlike the (newly defined?) private primary schools in the U.S.

----End of comment of vote 727580---------

In fairness to Kiskun, there is one possibility which would make "primary school" a better equivalent to "Volksschule" (Austria):
The "Volksschule" advertises its services on an international level (Volksschule Wien). As a school advertising "my" services to expats, I would use "primary school" rather than "elementary school", that would be in line with Kiskun # 727580. However, when comparing for instance "Volksschule Wien" on an international level (e.g. in documents of the UN and other official documents), I would probably translate "elementary school", based on the information above. But in a European context, I would translate it as "primary school" (for children 6-11, which is quite common in Britain, Germany, Austria, Switzerland).

Bottom line: [esp. Br.] is what seems right as disambiguation of the "kindergarten issue" (in the U.S. often included, not in Europe or Australia).

By the way: Isn't it that "esp. Br." in dictionary suggests also the understanding in India, Hongkong, Australia, New Zealand? Why is it not common in the Philippines (over 90 mil. people leaning on sth. like "esp. Am.")?
Wikipedia(EN): Education_in_the_Philippines
If I have to translate "Volksschule" here in the Philippines, I'd definitely chose the term "elementary school". [without tag].
Again, that shows there is nothing wrong with [esp. Br.] in dictionaries and dict.cc .

I would support the change of all [Br.] tags of primary school into [esp. Br.]. But for now, I revoke my [Br.] vote # 727580 for the sake of peace, and in order to move on.

That's enough food for thought I suppose.
Antwort: 
There is no tag in the American Heritage Dictionary.  #597073
von Kiskunfelegyhaza (US), 2011-05-13, 17:10  like dislike  Spam?  
I think the reason is that the term "primary school" has a range of meanings depending on who is using it where. [esp. Br.] doesn't resolve this issue, but it's a step in the right direction. It irritates me that dict.cc now conveys the idea that "primary school" isn't used in any sense in the US. I am following the American Heritage Dictionary with my vote for no tagging as to region on "primary school." It's an international term - that's really the bottom line!
Antwort: 
von uffie (GH/KI), 2011-05-13, 17:43  like dislike  Spam?  
 #597081
It's always difficult to decide on an appropriate tag if a word/phrase is used occassionally in a particular area but is not the most common one. The only other option I can think of is to add [also for: elementary school] or something similar.

The tags are there to help those less familiar with the language and this may point them in the right direction. Unlike some others, I believe tags are a useful tool for those who need a dictionary most.

Only an idea, not sure how useful it would really be.

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