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turn Act of God - höhere Gewalt entry into a [WRONG for:] entry?  
von Windfall (GB), Last modified: 2012-06-26, 09:07  like dislike  Spam? act of god
Wikipedia(DE): H%C3%B6here_Gewalt
Wikipedia says: Allerdings muss beachtet werden, dass der französische und der englische Begriff mit der deutschen „höheren Gewalt“ nicht deckungsgleich sind[1]. Ein „Act of God“ ist vielmehr eine Art „Unterfall“ der höheren Gewalt.
I know this has been disambiguated with [Naturereignis], but this entry makes it look to me as if it would be acceptable for me to translate Act of God with höhere Gewalt (especially as they sound so linguistically similar). In fact, as far as I can tell, höhere Gewalt is a much better match to force majeure (for which it is also already in the dict) and which both stem from the same Latin phrase Wikipedia(EN): Force_majeure (give or take a j/i, which I assume ´to be irrelevant unless someone says otherwise).
I would therefore like to turn the Act of God - höhere Gewalt entry into a [WRONG for:] entry, as it strikes me as misleading.
I originally suggested "delete", but this translation is pretty popular and also in LEO,s o it would need to be a WRONG for to stop it getting back in. As far as I can make out, it is not only wrong in an insurance context, but also in law as a whole, as the difference between what the two terms cover doesn't go away when you move away from insurance to other areas of law.
.... has been disambiguated with [Naturereignis]   +   it's   insur.  !?!  question -  English expression = insurance talk ???  #661969
von sunfunlili (DE/GB), 2012-06-26, 09:12  like dislike  Spam?  
von Windfall (GB), Last modified: 2012-06-26, 09:23  like dislike  Spam?  
4;sfl, the problem is that höhere Gewalt covers far more than Act of God. Sure, they're both insurance talk and sure most people who aren't specialists would have no idea of the difference between an Act of God and a force majeure, but that's just why this translation is so dangerous. If you translate "höhere Gewalt" with "Act of God", you're missing out all non-natural disasters, and if you translate "Act of God" with "höhere Gewalt", you're adding in a whole load of non-natural disasters. Sure, a non-specialist wouldn't be too worried about the difference, but someone to whom these differences were important (e.g. people drawing up contracts) would be shocked at this.
For me, it's a bit like having the entry "lion - Katze [Löwe]", sure there's a relationship and sure a lion is a type of Raubkatze, but woe betide anyone who uses that translation in either direction.
So Sturmsturz is no correct rendering of windfall?  #661995
von Proteus-, 2012-06-26, 10:54  like dislike  Spam?  194.166.2...
von Windfall (GB), Last modified: 2012-06-26, 11:34  like dislike  Spam?  
4;Proteus, am I failing to get my point across? Which bit are people not seeing?
A hurricaine is an act of God, höhere Gewalt, a force majeure and a Naturereignis.
A war is höhere Gewalt and force majeure, but neither an act of God nor a Naturereignis.
So although we could describe a hurricaine as any of act of God, höhere Gewalt, force majeure or Naturereignis, I would hope not to see "act of God" in a dictionary as a translation for "höhere Gewalt" just because it can be used to describe some of the same events. If everyone else disagrees, maybe we should go the whole hog and enter "force majeure [act of God] - Naturereignis" because some force majeure are also a Naturereginis.
Don't be so easy to tease, Windfall  #662005
von Proteus-, 2012-06-26, 11:42  like dislike  Spam?  194.166.2...
von ddr (AT), Last modified: 2012-06-26, 12:44  like dislike  Spam?  
The question to me seems if the insurance-tag is correct? Do insurances really use the term 'act of God' for natural desasters? Or did they in earlier times?
I wouldn't delete it, as we don't really have another expression for 'act of God' in German, at least not applying to desasters etc. And I think WRONG would be midleading as well, as it might be correct for people who use a rather religious terminology.
So, we might leave it untagged, as an expression for general use, or we might add dated or archaic, if that applies.
And a war, I would have thought, is only Höhere Gewalt in insurance terms.
von Windfall (GB), 2012-06-26, 13:31  like dislike  Spam?  
Oh, that's the question. Yes "act of God" is still the fixed term for natural disasters within law and insurance in the anglo-saxon world and is still used whether or not the writers believe in any sort of God.

Are you sure it doesn't match up to "Naturereignis", as is already in the dict? That seems perfectly fitting to me. However, translate "act of God" as "höhere Gewalt" in a contract and you have just substantially expanded what the clause of the contract refers to. What is wrong with "Natureereignis" for this?

I have nothing against this translation appearing in a TV drama, but I'd avoid it in anything where the meaning of the words is more important that their feel.
von Windfall (GB), Last modified: 2012-06-26, 13:35  like dislike  Spam?  
And just to be clear, although "acts of God" are a subset of "force majeure", the terms are not synonyms and not interchangeable any more than you can use "Naturereignis" interchangeably with "höhere Gewalt".
höhere Gewalt - Naturereignis  #662595
von climatepatrol (CH), 2012-06-30, 10:01  like dislike  Spam?  
Not every "Naturereignis" is "höhere Gewalt" in a legal sense or as insurance jargon. The point of "höhere Gewalt" is cause for damages without human interference. Civil unrest is NOT considered as "höhere Gewalt". It is in fact something that is usually explicitly excluded in any insurance contract. I still see absolutely no difference in meaning between the insurance jargon "act of God" and "force majeure" and I don't see what the difference in legal consequences should be. Therefore, I consider the dictionary entry correct as is.
natural event - Naturereignis  #662604
von climatepatrol (CH), Last modified: 2012-06-30, 12:32  like dislike  Spam?  
Winfall has a point. I start to get her point only just now. This however does not qualify for the entry to be wrong. Here is my suggestion.

To make it clear: Force majeure and "höhere Gewalt" are equivalent, whereas both terms are sometimes used to refer to merely natural events. Act of God narrows down "force majeure" to mainly natural causes. For example:
1.1.1        act of God (such as, but not limited to, fires, explosions, earthquakes, drought, tidal waves and floods);

So the disambiguations on both sides [natural event] + [Naturereignis] should do the trick. I changed my vote likewise.
von Windfall (GB), 2012-07-08, 16:51  like dislike  Spam?  
Bad solution. Will explain further when backl from holiday.
von Windfall (GB), 2012-07-15, 20:02  like dislike  Spam?  
I haver been having difficulty working out which part of my point people aren't getting, and I have come to the conclusion it's a misunderstanding of how "act of God" is usually used in English. Usually it appears as an exclusion in an insurance policy or legal contract. Here is an example:
"This warranty does not cover acts of god, normal wear and tear, cosmetic damage, accidents, misuse, commercial use, any modifications to the product, improper connection, improper use, purchase from an unauthorized dealer, attempted repair by anyone other than thinksound."
Used like this it means "natural disasters" (e.g. hurricaine, earthquake or other major event which humans were not involved in). For historical reasons, people use "acts of God" rather than "natural disaster" when writing these contracts in English (possibly because they know what a law court will include under the term).
It is a subset of force majeure - which means natural diasters plus acts caused my humans other than the ones involved in the contract (such as war, bombings etc.).
It is rare to talk about an "act of God" in the singular in an insurance sense. Policies refer to "acts of God" in order to exclude them. If you translated this as "hoehere Gewalt" then the German version would exclude more than the English version did. When people say "it was an act of God" in general language, they don't mean the insurance meaning at all - they mean God did it (in the religious sense), and I have no issue with the matching translation in the dict which is labelled "relig" rather than "insurance".
Although it is true that a hoehere Gewalt can be an act of God, they are not translations of wach other any more than an EU member state (EU-Mitgliedstaat) is the same as a member of the euro zone (Mitglied der Eurozone). In some sentences you'd get away with it because the difference wouldn't be relevent - e.g. translating "Germany is a member of the euro zone" as "Deutschland is EU-Mitgliedstaat". Both sentences are true, but they are not translations of each other and you would run into trouble if you decided to translate "Grossbritannien ist EU-Mitgliedstaat" as "Great Britain is a member of the Eurozone". Nevertheless, that's the equivalent of the translation we currently have in the dict. The current translation pair:
act of God [natural event] höhere Gewalt {f} [Naturereignis]  
is equivalent to:
euro zone member state [EMU member state] - EU-Mitgliedstaat {m} [Mitglied der EWU]
or equally to
EU member state [member of the EMU] - Mitglied {m} der EWU [Mitglied der Eurozone]
Equally, the following (mistranslation) follows exactly the same pattern:
EU member state [Germany] - Deutschland {n} [Bundesrepublik Deutschland]
Germany [Federal Republic of Germany] - EU-Mitgliedstaat {m} [Deutschland]
Both things in brackets mean the same thing, but every time I say member of the EU (instead of the Eurozone), I use a disambiguation to explain that I am only referring to a subset of the EU member states which are also members of the Eurozone. And, worse still, I'd be willing to bet that there are plenty of people out there who aren't clear which is an explanation of what the main term means and which is a subset.
I hope that we can all agree that "EU-Mitgliedstaat" is a mistranslation of "Eurozone member" (although in some circumstances either word could apply) and that if this translation appeared in LEO, it would be a valuable service to explain in that this was in fact a mistranslation using a WRONG FOR entry.
If you still don't understand what I'm trying to say, please let me know (especially telling me which aspect of this explanation you have an issue with).
Vis major ?  #664921
von climatepatrol (CH), 2012-07-17, 18:22  like dislike  Spam?  
4;Windfall. I see.
"Allerdings muss beachtet werden, dass der französische und der englische Begriff mit der deutschen „höheren Gewalt“ nicht deckungsgleich sind[1]. Ein „Act of God“ ist vielmehr eine Art „Unterfall“ der höheren Gewalt."

But your example is a clear-cut situation., "euro zone member state [EMU member state] - EU-Mitgliedstaat {m} [Mitglied der EWU]". I would not approve this as a entry. However,
act of God varies and has to be clearly defined in each contract.  For example:
1.1.1        act of God (such as, but not limited to, fires, explosions, earthquakes, drought, tidal waves and floods). If definitions are dependent on contracts or jurisdictions, they can be matched by using disambiguations on both language sides. There are also differences between the French "force majeure" and the German "höhere Gewalt", but Duden uses it as synomyms.
Then "Act of God" seems to be closer to "Vis major" but Duden uses "Vis major" as a "synonym" of "höhere Gewalt": .

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