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Frage:
English translation :)  
von Romono (US), Last modified: 2012-07-27, 20:21  like dislike  Spam?  
“Und vielleicht habt Ihr Euch auch schon mal so hilflos gefuhlt wie der kleine Bronto.“ I think it is translated as “And maybe you yourselves have also already once felt so helpless as the little Bronto,” but is this correct?

Also, I’m trying to understand the word order. I understand the verb “gefuhlt” is a past participle and reflexive verb, but why isn’t it at the end of the sentence?

Thanks!
Antwort: 
von Diktionix, 2012-07-27, 20:29  like dislike  Spam?  62.178.98....
 #666646
Yes, it's correct. I'm afraid, the past particple being placed after the adjective is a general rule of German grammar.
Antwort: 
Style.  #666648
von MichaelK (US), 2012-07-27, 20:36  like dislike  Spam?  
It's not at the end of the sentence because the entire book is written in an informal, chatty style. The writing style is supposed to reflect how someone talks to an audience of younger people. Proper grammar isn't always part of that equation.
Your concerns are similar to someone who goes to a rock concert and wonders why no one is wearing a coat and tie. Well, I exaggerate. But you get the idea. :-)
Antwort: 
von Romono (US), Last modified: 2012-07-27, 23:03  like dislike  Spam?  
 #666651
Er, I'm a bit confused, then. Is it because the past participle needs to be placed after the adjective (a general rule of German grammar) or because of stylistic reasons (breaking German grammar)? These two explanations don't fit too well together. :P
Antwort: 
von Diktionix, 2012-07-27, 23:28  like dislike  Spam?  62.178.98....
 #666652
'It seems that we're talking at cross-purposes. The word order "hat sich hilflos gefühlt" is mandatory and a matter of grammar. The position of "wie der kleine Bronto", however, is a matter of style and could also be placed between "hilflos" and "gefühlt". Purists may argue that only that word order would be correct, but I have noticed a growing tendency in German to keep the principal verb near the auxiliary verb and to avoid "Schachtelsätze" and "Bandwurmsätze" (complicated and excessively long sentences). I wouldn't consider the word order wrong as it is in your sentence, not even particulary informal (MichaelK's point).
Antwort: 
Good explanation (and disentanglement of my rambling 20:36) from Diktionix.  #666653
von MichaelK (US), Last modified: 2012-07-28, 00:26  like dislike  Spam?  
A thought on translation: With stuff like this, it's best to put grammar rules on the back burner and think of what an English-speaker would say in that same situation. And perhaps at one time or another, you've felt just as helpless as little Bronto did catches the tone (direct speech to a group of young children) a little better than your try.
Antwort: 
I gotcha  #666657
von Romono (US), Last modified: 2012-07-28, 00:56  like dislike  Spam?  
Thanks for clarifying, Diktionix. So basically the sentence could either use the word order "hilflos gefühlt wie der kleine Bronto" or "hilflos wie der kleine Bronto gefühlt," but in either case "gefühlt" would have to come after "hilflos." (I thought you meant "gefühlt" had to be directly after the word "hilflos," hence my confusion.) And some would use the former simply because they find the distance between "habt" and "gefühlt" too long. I think I got it now.

MichaelK, I suppose I was thinking more of a direct, literal translation in English (mostly just for the purpose of understanding the sentence). But yeah, it definitely would be better translated as that if you were to think of how it would be spoken in English.
Antwort: 
One last question about this sentence  #666660
von Romono (US), 2012-07-28, 02:03  like dislike  Spam?  
Would "wie" in the sentence be a subordinating conjunction and so would you need to put a comma in the sentence? "Wie der kleine Bronto" sort of sounds like a subordinate clause, but I'm not sure.
Antwort: 
von MichaelK (US), Last modified: 2012-07-28, 03:44  like dislike  Spam?  
 #666661
The string wie der kleine Bronto is not a subordinating clause. Subordinating clauses contain a subject and a verb. But even if it were a subodinating clause (wie sich der kleine Bronto gefühlt hat), you still would not set a comma. This is because wie sich der kleine Bronto gefühlt hat is what's called an essential subordinate clause. It clarifies what we mean (so hilflos wie wer?).
If the subordinate clause is non-essential (Und vielleicht habt Ihr Euch schon mal hilflos gefühlt, so wie sich zum Beispiel der kleine Bronto gefühlt hat), you do set a comma.
Antwort: 
von Romono (US), Last modified: 2012-07-28, 04:37  like dislike  Spam?  
 #666668
Ah, okay, thanks. So a subordinate clause like "wie sich der kleine Bronto gefühlt," would be necessary for the meaning of the entire sentence, while something like "so wie sich zum Beispiel der kleine Bronto gefühlt hat" would not because it's not necessary and so would need a comma. Pretty similar to English in that way.

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