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von Windfall (GB), 2013-08-25, 18:47  like dislike  Spam?  
... dass X  ein tatbestandsmäßiger Eingriff in den berechtigten Besitz der Unternehmen anzulasten ist
... that X is to be blamed for a factual//criminal//illegal??? interference  in the companies' entitled possession
The best I've found is this thread:
I've followed it as best I can and I'm still not clear if I should interpret "tatbestandsmäßiger" as factual, criminal or illegal. I'd be a little surprised if the behaviour was described as criminal, but I wouldn't rule it out.
X is to be blamed for the action that constitutes an infringement of the legal assets / possessions / rights  #721983
anonymous, 2013-08-25, 19:04  like dislike  Spam?  77.181.220....
von Windfall (GB), Last modified: 2013-08-25, 19:41  like dislike  Spam?  
You appear to have left out "tatbestandsmaessig" altogether. Was this intentional, or am I missing something?
Tatbestand = the facts / prerequisites constituting an offence (or some other legally defined term)  #721993
anonymous, 2013-08-25, 19:20  like dislike  Spam?  77.181.220....
so  "tatbestandsmaessig" = " that constitutes an ... "
or you could say: the actions that fit the legal prerequisites of (insert legal term)  #721996
anonymous, 2013-08-25, 19:28  like dislike  Spam?  77.181.220....
von Windfall (GB), Last modified: 2013-08-25, 19:43  like dislike  Spam?  
Oh dear. I think you've lost me. Can I not translate "berechtigten Besitz" as entitled possession? I couldn't find anything on that, so took a literal approach. It does seem to refer to some sort of possession (in the same way that English law gives people the right to enjoy quiet possession of things). Also, "tatbestandsmaessig" is being used as an adjective here. Turning it into a verb makes things very complicated. The full sentence is:
Legt man demgemäß die Beurteilung des Berufungsgerichts zugrunde, daß den Beklagten eine zweitägige Blockade der Baumaschinen und damit ein tatbestandsmäßiger Eingriff i.S.d. § 823 Abs. 1 BGB in den berechtigten Besitz der Bauunternehmen anzulasten ist, so ist - entgegen der Auffassung der Revision - auch die Bewertung dieser Rechtsgutverletzung als rechtswidrig aus Rechtsgründen nicht zu beanstanden.
If I put your sentence in, it becomes less clear to me. Is it neverthesless correct in this context?
My current attempt is:
If you accordingly work on the basis of the Court of Appeal's judgement that the defendants are to be blamed for a two-day blockade of the construction machines which thus constitutes interference within the meaning of section 823 (1) BGB in the construction companies' entitled possession – contrary to the view of the appeal – even the assessment of this infringement of a legally protected interest as illegal is, for legal reasons, not objectionable. (I thought they were intererfering with rather than infringing on the possession/right, but if it's definitely infringement I can change that).
the point is: Not any action makes you liable for damages according to § 823 BGB, only those that are "tatbestandsmaessig"  #721999
anonymous, 2013-08-25, 20:01  like dislike  Spam?  77.181.220....
i.e. those that correspond to the prerequisites of § 823 BGB. Maybe you could use "actions that fall within the scope the relevant law"  (i.e § 823 BGB)

§ 823 BGB
(1)A person who, intentionally or negligently, unlawfully injures the life, body, health, freedom, property or another right of another person is liable to make compensation to the other party for the damage arising from this.
(2)The same duty is held by a person who commits a breach of a statute that is intended to protect another person. If, according to the contents of the statute, it may also be breached without fault, then liability to compensation only exists in the case of fault.
my try  #722003
von uffie (GH/KI), Last modified: 2013-08-25, 23:27  like dislike  Spam?  
Accordingly, taking the judgement of the court of appeal as a basis that the defendant is accused of a two-day blockade of the construction machines and, as a consequence, of interference with the rightful property of the construction company - as set out in paragraph 823, section 1 BGB (German civil code) - then, contrary to the opinion of the court of appeal, with regard to being unlawful for legal reasons, the actual assessment of such interference with rightful property cannot be objected to either.

Edit - I've changed it around some more....
von Windfall (GB), 2013-08-25, 23:18  like dislike  Spam?  
Thanks both of you, that really helps. 4;ufriend, I was beginning to think entitled should be rightful, but is it definitely ok to translate Besitz  as property?
von uffie (GH/KI), 2013-08-25, 23:28  like dislike  Spam?  
There is also a difference in German law between Besitzer und Eigentümer. Therefore I#d take property.
von Windfall (GB), 2013-08-25, 23:36  like dislike  Spam?  
Thank you, you are a star!
von uffie (GH/KI), 2013-08-26, 01:31  like dislike  Spam?  
Thanks :) You're welcome!
von Windfall (GB), 2013-08-26, 09:49  like dislike  Spam?  
4;ufriend, I think possibly I'd better stick with rightful possession:
If something is my property, then in day-to-day use of English I own it (Eigentum) (although possibly it is different in legal English:, but the line seems pretty blurred), but if I simply posess it (possession/Besitz), then I have physical control or occupancy of it
(you'll notice that possession can also mean ownership in Collins, but that's not the sense we mean when we say "posession is nine tenths of the law" Wikipedia(EN): Possession_is_nine-tenths_of_the_law and I know of no other way to distinguish between ownership and possession in English, which I don't think we do consistently, which is why it's so tricky to translate)
von Windfall (GB), 2013-08-26, 11:21  like dislike  Spam?  
Btw, the text later used "tatbestandlich" and I found this:
which I found very helpful.
von uffie (GH/KI), Last modified: 2013-08-26, 11:48  like dislike  Spam?  
tatbeständlich - thanks for the clarification. As you can see from my above suggestion I didn't translate it per se but tried to convey it with "as set out in". In my view this conveys that it fulfills the provision of that particular paragraph. But you may want to spell it out more clearly.

possession vs property

To quote my reliable Fisher:

"Book III of the BGB (Sachenrecht / law of property) is divided into nine sections....."
"Besitz (possession) is not a dingliches Recht (real right) or Recht an der Sache (right with regard to a Sache /right in rem) but merely tatsächliche Sachherrschaft (actual dominance over a Sache)."

He uses the German legal term "Sache" as it is closely defined (see

The following sets out the difference between ownership and possession -

This is everything a person owns.  Property is commonly thought of as a thing which belongs to someone and over which a person has total control. But, legally, it is more properly defined as a collection of legal rights over a thing. These rights are usually total and fully enforceable by the state or the owner against others.

It has been said that "property and law were born and die together. Before laws were made there was no property. Take away laws and property ceases."  Before laws were written and enforced, property had no relevance. Possession was all that mattered.
There are many classifications of property, the most common being between real property or immovable property (real estate such as land or buildings) and "chattel", or "moveable" (things which are not attached to the land such as a bicycle, a car or a hammer) and between public (property belonging to everybody or to the state) and private property." (from
Windfall 9:49 Wenn ich heute früher aufgestanden wäre...  #722062
von Gobber (DE/IO), Last modified: 2013-08-26, 11:54  like dislike  Spam?  
hätte ich da auch schon darauf hingewiesen. Besitz mit property zu übersetzen, ist bißchen riskant.
Besitz bedeutet juristisch: ich habe eine Sache zur Verfügung, die 'Sachherrschaft' (what a word!) über sie. Sie kann, muß aber nicht unbedingt, mein Eigentum sein..
Diese Unterscheidung  muß es (auch sprachlich) eigentlich so auch im brit. Recht geben. (wer eine Sache hat und wem sie gehört)
Sachherrschaft/Besitz/Eigentum mal grundsätzlich gut erklärt hier:
Leider hilft das nicht weiter im Bezug auf die engl. Fachbegriffe
von uffie (GH/KI), 2013-08-26, 11:56  like dislike  Spam?  
you'll have to work out whether the German text actually means Besitz or Sachherrschaft and go from there
von Windfall (GB), 2013-08-26, 12:07  like dislike  Spam?  
4;ufriend, it definitely means phyiscal control (Sachherrschaft). It may or may not also mean ownership (Eigentum).
von uffie (GH/KI), Last modified: 2013-08-26, 12:42  like dislike  Spam?  
then I personally would stick with property, see definition above: "legally, it is more properly defined as a collection of legal rights over a thing. These rights are usually total and fully enforceable by the state or the owner against others" .....

Meaning of Property

Property is defined in section 10 of the Act and is wider than the Theft Act definition in that it includes land. Thus land can be damaged; for example, by dumping chemicals on it. Property does not however include intangibles or things in action. (

I'd have thought the above applies....
von Windfall (GB), Last modified: 2013-08-26, 12:57  like dislike  Spam?  
4;ufriend, you have to understand what "property"  means in the first place to understand that meaning of "property" in that definition you posted a link to. Also, that definition of property relates specifically and only to that act. Property can also, in normal circumstances, include intangible things otherwise "intellectual property" would have another name. I'm afraid that that definition doesn't help your argument at all (at least not in any way that's meaningful to me).  
You have the extra issue that we have some weird rule that means all land in England (and quite possibly other parts of the UK) is technically owned by the Queen and all we own of the land is the freehold (I bet that's a nightmare to translate into German). Nevertheless, we don't talk about possessing or the possesor of property (in the meaning of land/buildings). We talk about owning it and its owner (and we mean the person who owns the freehold, not the Queen). See, I told you we weren't consistent.
One further issue: the phrase "berechtigte(n) Besitz" comes up a lot in this text and there are some places where only "possession" works and "property" doesn't. "Ownership" would also work in those places, but it is my understanding that "Besitz" is specifically not ownership.
Weiß nicht, ob das was hilft, aber...  #722085
von Gobber (DE/IO), 2013-08-26, 13:22  like dislike  Spam?  
wenn ich eine Baumaschine miete, bin ich der rechtmäßige Besitzer.
Wenn ich eine klaue, bin ich der unrechtmäßige Besitzer.
Thanks Gobber.  #722092
von Windfall (GB), Last modified: 2013-08-26, 13:36  like dislike  Spam?  
If you hire a construction machine (in English) it remains the property of the hire company, but you have it in your possession (although we wouldn't usually call you its "possessor", as English doesn't tend to talk about things that way - or at least everyday English doesn't).
If you steal a construction machine, it becomes stolen property, but is not your property. It is, nevertheless, in your possession.
I'd like to think I've watched enough crime drama to be right about the above. That's certainly correct in terms of everyday usage.
I therefore think "property" relates to ownership/Eigentum in most uses where it could potentially mean wither Besitz or Eigentum (as opposed to another meaning of property, such as house).
Antwort: D gibt's sogar noch den redlichen / unredlichen Besitzer! Das ist wieder was anderes;)  #722096
von Gobber (DE/IO), Last modified: 2013-08-26, 14:03  like dislike  Spam?  
nur zur Klarstellung: Was ich oben(13:22) geschrieben habe, sagen natürlich nur Juristen.
In Deinem Text ist deshalb immer von 'berechtigtem Besitz' die Rede.
Im Alltag wird nicht einmal zwischen Besitz/Eigentum unterschieden!
JURISTEN! The salt of the earth!
In dict. eigentlich richtig eingetragen (law): possession property
von uffie (GH/KI), Last modified: 2013-08-26, 14:11  like dislike  Spam?  
4; Windfall. I'm aware of the conventions around property and land in the UK. I'm not a lawyer and can therefore not decide whether property is entirely appropriate here, particularly as I haven't seen the whole text, just a single sentence. I'm sure as a native you're best qualified to judge usage.
... interference - as defined in Section 823 paragraph 1 of the German Civil Code - with the rightful possessions of the construction company ...  #722103
von Proteus-, 2013-08-26, 14:13  like dislike  Spam?  178.191.31....
LINK   #722106
von Proteus-, 2013-08-26, 14:24  like dislike  Spam?  178.191.31....
Section 823
Liability in damages

(1)A person who, intentionally or negligently, unlawfully injures the life, body, health, freedom, property or another right of another person is liable to make compensation to the other party for the damage arising from this.
(2)The same duty is held by a person who commits a breach of a statute that is intended to protect another person. If, according to the contents of the statute, it may also be breached without fault, then liability to compensation only exists in the case of fault.    
Would stick with possessions because you may be rightfully / legally entitled to them  #722107
von Proteus-, 2013-08-26, 14:27  like dislike  Spam?  178.191.31....
§ 986 Einwendungen des Besitzers
(1) Der Besitzer kann die Herausgabe der Sache verweigern, wenn er oder der mittelbare Besitzer, von dem er sein Recht zum Besitz ableitet, dem Eigentümer gegenüber zum Besitz berechtigt ist. Ist der mittelbare Besitzer dem Eigentümer gegenüber zur Überlassung des Besitzes an den Besitzer nicht befugt, so kann der Eigentümer von dem Besitzer die Herausgabe der Sache an den mittelbaren Besitzer oder, wenn dieser den Besitz nicht wieder übernehmen kann oder will, an sich selbst verlangen.
(2) Der Besitzer einer Sache, die nach § 931 durch Abtretung des Anspruchs auf Herausgabe veräußert worden ist, kann dem neuen Eigentümer die Einwendungen entgegensetzen, welche ihm gegen den abgetretenen Anspruch zustehen.
von Windfall (GB), 2013-08-26, 14:54  like dislike  Spam?  
Thanks, Proteus. Was the logic behind saying "possessions" (=belongings) rather than "possession" (=fact of possessing) because Besitz here refers to a thing possessed rather than the act of possessing them?
Quite right, Laura  #722124
von Proteus-, 2013-08-26, 15:07  like dislike  Spam?  178.191.31....
von Windfall (GB), 2013-08-26, 15:16  like dislike  Spam?  
Ah, that's why ufriend wanted it to be "property". Now I understand. I was looking at it wrong. Thank you Proteus and thanks again to ufriend.
von Windfall (GB), 2013-08-26, 15:19  like dislike  Spam?  
But can it also be "rightful possession"? Because otherwise this sentence doesn't make sense to me:
Die Beklagten hätten in rechtswidriger Weise in ein geschütztes Rechtsgut der Bauunternehmen, nämlich deren berechtigten Besitz an den Baumaschinen eingegriffen
Agree with your scruples. So let's make it interference with rightful possession of the construction company  #722129
von Proteus-, 2013-08-26, 15:25  like dislike  Spam?  178.191.31....
von Windfall (GB), 2013-08-26, 15:35  like dislike  Spam?  
Thank you :)

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