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Eigentümer und Besitzer (Swiss law)  
von Windfall (GB), 2015-06-17, 17:34  like dislike  Spam?  
If someone is called the "Eigentümer und Besitzer" of a car, presumably he not only owns that car, but has it in his possession. Is there any way of expressing this in English that doesn't sound silly (or am I off the mark with my assumption about meaning)? I've got as far as "owner and possessor of the car"  but that is certainly not a standard expression. Can/should I rephrase it as "owned the car and had it in his possession"?
owner and lawful user?  ,  owner and proprietor?  #805297
anonymous, 2015-06-17, 17:59  like dislike  Spam?  77.10.9....
both expressions are not necessarily an exact equivalent of "Eigentümer und Besitzer", but they seem to indicate full legal rights to the item in question
(N.B.: Even a thief can be a "Besitzer", albeit an "unrechtmäßiger Besitzer". But I have no idea about that in GB or USA)
von Proofreader, 2015-06-17, 18:21  like dislike  Spam?  80.108.151...
Unless it is a legal text, "Besitzer" is probably superfluous or can be rendered with a verbal phrase (to be in possession of)
von Proofreader, 2015-06-17, 18:27  like dislike  Spam?  80.108.151...
Consider the possibility of the phrase being a tautology or a pseudo-legal expression.
Reproducing it with a verb phrase is probably the most idiomatic option.
title holder of the vehicle in his possession  #805303
von Lisa4dict (US), 2015-06-17, 18:40  like dislike  Spam?  
owner and possessor of the vehicle  #805315
von Proteus-, 2015-06-17, 20:22  like dislike  Spam?  91.115.80...
.  #805369
von Sunblind-Duck (GB), 2015-06-18, 11:04  like dislike  Spam?  
Described on UK vehicle documents as the keeper.
von Windfall (GB), 2015-06-18, 11:13  like dislike  Spam?  
Thanks, everyone. I like "owner and keeper", that sounds familiar to me, and keeper means person who keeps according to Collins, and Collins goes to to define "to keep" as "have or retain possession of"
so I think that covers the appropriate meaning.
This is in a letter from one lawyer to another, so I think I do need to represent both words.
keeper corresponds to German Halter / keeper the vehicle > Fahrzeughalter  #805378
von Proteus-, 2015-06-18, 12:09  like dislike  Spam?  194.96.46....
Correction: keeper of the vehicle  Please add vocab in  #805380
von Proteus-, 2015-06-18, 12:14  like dislike  Spam?  194.96.46....
von Windfall (GB), 2015-06-18, 12:18  like dislike  Spam?  
4;Proteus, surely that's the point they're trying to make with "Eigentümer und Besitzer", i.e. he's is the owner and not only that he is also the keeper of the vehicle (i.e. he owns it and has it in his possession). I don't see how "owner and keeper" would be understood differently from "owner and possessor" as "keep" and "possess" both mean "have in your possession" here. If "possessor" weren't juxtaposed with "owner" you might also understand it to mean "owner", but actually legally and particularly when juxtaposed with "owner" it means "have in your possession":
The keeper may be either the owner or the possessor of a vehicle - so it definitely does not correspond to Besitzer (logic!)  #805391
von Proteus-, 2015-06-18, 12:41  like dislike  Spam?  194.96.46....
von Windfall (GB), Last modified: 2015-06-18, 12:54  like dislike  Spam?  
4;Proteus, the possessor can be the owner Where's the difference other than "owner and keeper of the vehicle" gets 51 hits on Google whereas "owner and possessor" of the vehicle only gets 13?
Btw, have you seen this? Wikipedia(DE): Eigent%C3%BCmer-Besitzer-Verh%C3%A4ltnis
owner vs registered keeper  #805403
von uffie (GH/KI), 2015-06-18, 12:59  like dislike  Spam?  
von Windfall (GB), 2015-06-18, 13:02  like dislike  Spam?  
That's interesting. So the (registered) keeper can be the owner, but is actually the person who has day-to-day use of the vehicle whether that's the owner or not. Is that what people understand under "Besitzer" in "Eigentümer und Besitzer" or is this just German saying "owner" twice, like it  repeats the same meaning in "Art und Weise"?
Eigentümer and Besitzer are legally quite distinct  #805418
von Proteus-, 2015-06-18, 13:46  like dislike  Spam?  194.96.46....
von uffie (GH/KI), 2015-06-18, 13:49  like dislike  Spam?  
yes, AFAIK, to the first part. But, as said before, there is a significant different between the legal terms Eigentümer and Besitzer - but I have no idea about Switzerland.

NB Wikipedia is well and good but I'd back it up with some additional research....
Of course one and the same person may be owner and possessor. What differs is the legal position with respect to ownership or possession.   #805420
von Proteus-, 2015-06-18, 13:50  like dislike  Spam?  194.96.46....
von Windfall (GB), 2015-06-18, 14:22  like dislike  Spam?  
Thanks, uffie.
4;Proteus, have you understood what I'm saying about "keeper" and "possessor" both being words that don't automatically imply "owner"? Possessor can mean owner (literally, not just the possessor is the same person as the owner, but actually possessor can be used to mean "owner" in English), whereas AFAIK "keeper" can't also be used to mean "owner", although the keeper can be the same person as the owner. You seem to be repeatedly making the point that "Eigentümer" is the person who owns something and "Besitzer" is distinct from that. I am still currently liking "keeper" for "Besitzer"; however, I note that "Besitzer" doesn't even mean precisely the same thing under German and Swiss law, so trying to find a word that corresponds to it one to one in English is hopeless. I give you that "possessor" is a more obvious translation for "Besitzer", especially in light of the saying "possession is nine-tenths of the law" Wikipedia(EN): Possession_is_nine-tenths_of_the_law . However, "owner and keeper" sounds like a normal expression to do with vehicles to me. On the other hand, I will also grant you that "owner and possessor" seems specifically to be used to talk about German law:
I suppose the key question is whether I am better off with a translation that sounds like natural English or one that people have previously used to talk about distinctions in German law. As this is Swiss law (and a letter between lawyers), I have to concede that a non-English sounding expression that matches how books talk about this aspect of German law in English is the better choice in my case (admittedly it's not quite the same as Swiss law on the subject, but I suspect the niceties are in any case lost in translation); however in any case where the text required a more natural sound to it (e.g. a newspaper article or a novel), I would choose "owner and keeper". I hope this is the right choice, as I think "owner and keeper" would probably be slightly more comprehensible for anyone who hasn't studied the Eigentümer-Besitzer-Verhältnis in English.
keeper for insurance purposes is the registered keeper — either the owner OR the possessor OR (in most cases) both  #805447
von Proteus-, 2015-06-18, 15:30  like dislike  Spam?  194.96.46....
So owner and keeper means owner and registered keeper of the vehiclekeeper being a bureaucratic term (corresponding to Fahrzeughalter in German) that does not correctly render Besitzer

Oder auf Deutsch: Der Halter bzw. Fahrzeughalter ist entweder der Eigentümer ODER der Besitzer des Fahrzeugs ODER beides — womit H / Fzgh nicht spezifisch den Besitzer bezeichnen (können).
von Windfall (GB), 2015-06-18, 15:35  like dislike  Spam?  
4;Proteus, nevertheless, based on uffie's link, for the police and DVLA purposes, the concept of "registered keeper" is clearly distinct from that of the owner, otherwise the DVLA would not warn you that the person listed on the vehicle registration papers as the registered keeper was not necessarily the owner of the vehicle. It is possibly foolish of insurance companies to distinguish otherwise. Do you have a link that proves that they do?
registered keeper does not differentiate between owner or possessor — so it cannot be used specifically to designate possessor or owner  #805454
von Proteus-, 2015-06-18, 15:49  like dislike  Spam?  194.96.46....
von Windfall (GB), Last modified: 2015-06-18, 15:53  like dislike  Spam?  
I have deadlines and no more time on this argument. See my previous points, particularly my last two points, for details of my stance. They express my point of view pretty clearly.
a last comment  #805473
von uffie (GH/KI), 2015-06-18, 18:41  like dislike  Spam?  
4; Proteus, perhaps you haven't had a chance to read the link I posted earlier:

"The registered keeper should be the person who is actually using / keeping the vehicle and this is not necessarily the owner of the vehicle or the person who is paying for it.

He is the person responsible for the vehicle so far as official communications from the police/DVLA etc., but the owner is the person who put up the cash (or was given it as a gift).

The DVLA make a point of saying that the person named on the registration document is not necessarily the owner.

This is particularly true with a company car which is owned by the company, however the registration document should show the registered keeper, i.e. the day to day user (this may be an employee who has it as a permanent perk with his/her job).

In the case of a car used by a married couple, ownership of any property is usually classed as joint and if the husband was stopped driving the vehicle without insurance the police would probably accept that he was joint owner and not look to the wife for additional offences, such as owner permitting no insurance.

A registered keeper will usually be regarded as responsible for parking tickets etc so it would be wise to have the registration document changed if you are the owner, but not the user/keeper. There might also be some circumstances where you would be deemed as being the owner of the vehicle for an insurance offence, e.g. if you are permitting someone to use the vehicle knowing full well it is not insured or roadworthy."

For the German terminology see also:
"Abweichende Halterschaft

Es kommt oftmals vor, dass beispielsweise die Tochter ein Fahrzeug auf den Vater anmeldet, weil dieser in der Autoversicherung in einer günstigeren Schadenfreiheitsklasse eingestuft ist. Für den Fall, dass die Tochter das Fahrzeug gekauft hat, alle laufenden Kosten dafür übernimmt und als einzige Person das Fahrzeug nutzt, dann ist sie die Fahrzeughalterin. Diese Regelung beruht auf dem Trennungsprinzip zwischen Eigentümer und Besitzer des Bürgerlichen Gesetzbuchs. Nach der StVZO ist der Fahrzeughalter der Besitzer des Fahrzeugs, dieser muss aber nicht mit dem Eigentümer identisch sein. Ein gutes Beispiel hierfür sind Leasingfahrzeuge. Hier ist die Leasingfirma der Eigentümer und der Leasingnehmer ist der Besitzer und somit der Fahrzeughalter."

Although German terminology is not always used clearly this is roughly equivalent to the terminology used by Thames Valley Police.

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