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« Wissen und Können - Einzahl oder Mehrzahl?    

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in Rundbildwerk und Geschichtmalerei  
von valandk (IT/CA), 2015-07-01, 18:51  like dislike  Spam?  
in ???? and historical paintings?
in sculpture and historical paintings  #807341
von Proteus-, 2015-07-01, 19:48  like dislike  Spam?  194.118.50....
von valandk (IT/CA), 2015-07-01, 19:52  like dislike  Spam?  
Proteus, I really owe you.  Thanks!

Why can't I find the answer? I goole the words in all combinations, to no avail...
von MichaelK (US), 2015-07-01, 21:38  like dislike  Spam?  
4;valandk: With words that no one uses any more, try google Books instead of google Web. My google Books brings up 25 hits for Rundbildwerk. Not sure why Geschichtsmalerei didn't google for you. Perhaps you misspelled it like you did in your title?
A suggestion: the genre of painting is "history painting." While "historical" is not wrong, it could also mean "real old paintings."
von valandk (IT/CA), 2015-07-01, 22:07  like dislike  Spam?  
Thank you, Michael.  Googlebooks works.

For Geschichtsmalerei I copied Krause's word Geschichtmalerei (without the possessive).  I see the difference between history painting and historical paintings. I am not sure yet which of the two Krause meant:

"Mann und Weib, und Kinder und Großeltern, in schöner Gruppung und in menschheitwürdiger Handlung durch lebende Menschen in Feieraugenblikken der Bundinnigung, oder in Rundbildwerk und Geschichtmalerei, vorgestellt; Menschen aller verschiedenen Erdländer geschwisterliebinnig, seelenvoll vereint; echtmenschliche Lebnisse (Scenen) wesenlebiger, reinguter Menschen aus der Geschichte, und nach Dichtwerken werden sprechende, verkündende (prophetische), erwekkende Bilder der künftigen edleren Menschheit sein!"
MichaelK  #807349
von valandk (IT/CA), 2015-07-01, 22:48  like dislike  Spam?  
Michael, I cannot find the translation for "wesenlebig."  Do you have any idea what that means?
wesenlebig is a word K made up for himself; could be living in essence  #807352
von Proteus-, 2015-07-01, 23:26  like dislike  Spam?  91.115.81....
Proteus   #807353
von valandk (IT/CA), Last modified: 2015-07-01, 23:41  like dislike  Spam?  
Thanks, Proteus.  I guessed that much, but opted for Nature instead of Essence:

Men and women, and children and grandparents, visualized in beautiful grouping and in activity worthy of humanity, as living human beings in celebratory moments of intimate bonding [liturgical], or in sculpture and history painting; human beings of all different lands of earth soulfully united  in fervent love as sibling; purely human scenes of nature-animated, purely-good people will be speaking from history, and proclaiming (prophetically) by poems, inspiring images of the future more noble humanity!

By the way: I am open to and grateful for any correction/improvement to my work.
valandk  #807357
von MichaelK (US), Last modified: 2015-07-02, 02:36  like dislike  Spam?  
Looking at Krause's Menschen aus der Geschichte, und nach Dichtwerken, I'm certain his Geschichtsmalerei is history painting. He does include Dichtwerke, so paintings that depict figures and stories from, for example, Greek mythology would also qualify as history painting.
As Proteus said, wesenlebig is a Krauseian construct, and 'living in essence' seems to be as good if not better a translation as I could come up with. But there's a connection between Krause and the New England Transcendentalists (like Ralph Waldo Emerson). I'll root around in that movement a bit tonight and perhaps dig up a decent alternative before I nod off.
valandk and others who may want to help.  #807365
von MichaelK (US), Last modified: 2015-07-02, 04:33  like dislike  Spam?  
I pass. Proteus' 'living in essence' is as good as it gets, in my view. What I didn't know is that Krause believed his philosophy to be so unique that words to describe it do not exist. Consequently, he made up terms by mining proto-German for words and root syllables, closing the door to a precise translation into other languages. The exact meaning these words had went to the grave with Krause. An extreme example (which, I think, you posted here some time ago) of this :

Endwesen sind entwesenlebiget (mithin unwesenlebig) bloss, weil und sofern entwesenmälet und entweseninniget (entwesenmälinniget); das einzige Orursachniss (Mittel), sie wieder zu wesenbelebigen, ist eigenlebliche Weseninnigung und Wesenmäligung--Wesenmälinnigung.

Nevertheless, it surprised me to see the vehemence of criticism directed at Krause and his followers. By way of googling transcendentalism, I found this bit of vitriol written by Fritz Mauthner (1849-1923). I am posting this to show that minds so much clearer than mine (Mauthner was a smart man) couldn't do much with Krause's writing either:

Wir hatten in Prag noch einen dritten Philosophen, den Freiherrn von Leonhardi, der Schüler und (wenn ich nicht irre) Schwiegersohn des Weltverbesserers und Sprachverhunzers Krause war. Es ist vielleicht meine Schuld, vielleicht auch nicht, wenn ich von Leonhardi nicht ernsthaft reden kann.....Freiherr von Leonhardi verband mit Krause's Sprachungeheuern...mathematische Nüchternheit; was dabei herauskam, war unsäglich. Nein, nicht unsäglich, denn er sagte es; doch unerträglich. "Der Teufel ist als das Gegenstück zu Gott das or-om-wesenlebige Mälwesen mit einem negativen Vorzeichen." Und was das Allerschrecklichste ist: ich könnte heute nicht mehr sagen, ob diese Ausgeburt wörtlich über Leonhardis Lippen kam, so wie sie fest in meinem Gedächtnisse haftet, oder ob sie Erzeugnis einer Parodie ist, in der ich mich an Leonhardi zu ersten Male übte.

None of this is news to you, I'm sure.  Consider it my excuse  for not coming up with an answer to your question. Others may do better; I hope so.
possibly  #807374
von Lisa4dict loggedout, 2015-07-02, 07:58  like dislike  Spam?  99.11.162....
Given Michael's explanation as to the origin of that author's odd language "Geschichtmalerei"  may be meant as
pictoral storytelling / images depicting a story
if he derived it from Geschichte = story rather than Geschichte = history

Someone should have taken him aside and explain to him that language is supposed to facilitate communication of ideas, not obfuscate them.  But then, by that rule, many uses of jargon would have to be cleaned up.
von Sasso, 2015-07-02, 09:45  like dislike  Spam?  78.41.149....
In standard language use, "pictoral storytelling" would be "Geschichtenmalerei", while "history painting" is "Geschichtsmalerei".
Hat es Sinn, wenn einige versuchen, von diesem Forum aus Krause († 27. September 1832) zu belehren?  #807400
von Proteus-, 2015-07-02, 10:13  like dislike  Spam?  194.96.52....
von MichaelK (US), Last modified: 2015-07-02, 14:42  like dislike  Spam?  
4;Lisa: The reason I have to pass on Krause is excess. Philosophers often invent words or give an existing word a meaning unique to their philosophy, and it's satisfying to come up with a good translation for those words. But Krause's sheer number of invented words and strings of proto-German syllables just overwhelm me. I can't fashion a translation for wesenlebig when I can't understand Krause's (numerous and  well-intentioned) explanations.
von uffie (GH/KI), 2015-07-02, 11:52  like dislike  Spam?  
too much for me as well
von valandk (IT/CA), 2015-07-02, 15:53  like dislike  Spam?  
Firends, I thank you all, sincerely.

Proteus: no, it doesn’t make any sense to engage this forum into the study of a weird (1800) author such as Krause.  In my defense I can only say that I come to it with questions only when I have exhausted all (to me known) possible source of information and answers.  I hope the time all of you have spent in entertaining my queries has been to you not just frustrating, but stimulating as well.

Sasso: in the book it is “Geschichtsmalerei” = "history painting," the genre, as Michael suggested.

Michael: “living in essence” (for wesenlebig) is good and dandy but – it doesn’t fit in the context: “echtmenschliche Lebnisse (Scenen) wesenlebiger, reinguter Menschen …” these people in these pure human scenes are identified as – wesenlebiger, purely good human beings … and here we hit the wall.

Again friends: I thank you all.
valandk  #807468
von MichaelK (US), Last modified: 2015-07-02, 20:38  like dislike  Spam?  
I noticed the strange connection between wesenlebig and "good." In fact, in some text passages, I came across wesenlebig (gut). I don't know if Krause put that (gut) there or if some editor decided to help the reader out.

At any rate, I can't figure out if wesenlebige Menschen are also good people by K.'s definition, or if K. meant "wesenlebige people who also happen to be good people." His explanations are incomprehensible to me. I think he means "all wesenlebige people are good," but how does he make the connection? Obviously, one can't just translate wesenlebig with "good" and let the good Lord be a good man.
von valandk (IT/CA), Last modified: 2015-07-02, 17:39  like dislike  Spam?  
Michael, I admire your tenacity.

In other passages, Krause equates Wesen (Quiddity) with God: “Sowie  Gott, — Wesen, — das Eine Ganze, über Allem ist, was ist, also ist auch in der wesengemäßen Sprache, und in jeder beschränkten Sprache, das Zeichen, welches Gott bezeichnet, das erste und höchste.  (at bottom of page 372:

and in several passages Krause has distinguished Wesen (as the nature of - - -) from Natur (Nature, as we understand it), specifically defining Essence as Wesenheit. I understand Proteus’ position with Wesen-Essence, but I believe by wesenlebig Krause meant in-God-living.

I have highlighted in yellow, in the webpage I am working on, the original transcribed word and the translated form in-God-living, signifying that the translation is doubtful.

See my notes to the translation here (two paragraphs before Krause’s bust:

Be known: I derive no monetary or whatever other compensation from this work, other than keeping enjoyably busy, and ward off the inevitable senility.
valandk  #807536
von MichaelK (US), 2015-07-03, 03:25  like dislike  Spam?  
Thanks for the comments and the links. I can see now that my detour into New England Transcendentalism wasn't the best way to spend the evening. I should have read some texts on Pantheism--the belief that what one could call nature is identical with divinity. Everything is God. If that was Krause's belief, your translation "in-God-living" may well reflect what K. had in mind when he coined wesenlebig.

Keeping busy and warding off senility are commendable goals. I'm on this forum for pretty much the latter reason. I keep busy by using my body as best as I still can, but that means nodding off in front of the computer screen after a longish bicycle ride or after filling and dumping three wheelbarrow-loads of horse manure. Best of luck in your endeavor!
von valandk (IT/CA), 2015-07-03, 03:29  like dislike  Spam?  
thanks, Michael.

"nodding off in front of the computer" ... you too?
von MichaelK (US), 2015-07-03, 04:08  like dislike  Spam?  
Yes, me too. Too quiet around here at night, just the soothing sounds of nature and WDR3 streaming at low volume.

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