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 bei denen »
« a couple of smokes short of a pack    

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Frage:
bei denen  
von Liviu, 2015-10-02, 13:53  like dislike  Spam?  213.177.0...
hello.
can you please help me with translating the following - a text about rich armators / reeders "bei denen faehrt doch die Putzfrau Porsche ...". Do not understand what bei denen means in this context. Thanks.
Antwort: 
even their charwoman drives a Porsche  #818892
von Catwoman (DE), 2015-10-02, 13:57  like dislike  Spam?  
Antwort: 
von uffie (GH/KI), 2015-10-02, 14:21  like dislike  Spam?  
 #818896
more modern: cleaning lady
Chat:     
von Jim46 (US), 2015-10-02, 14:53  like dislike  Spam?  
 #818899
charwoman = chore woman  Not used here anymore.  It sounds a little degrading.
Chat:     
uffie und Jim46: sollte man das in dict.cc anmerken?  #818901
von Catwoman (DE), 2015-10-02, 14:58  like dislike  Spam?  
Chat:     
von Jim46 (US), 2015-10-02, 15:02  like dislike  Spam?  
 #818903
charwoman is in several times.  It is just my opinion that it sounds a bit degrading.
Chat:     
von uffie (GH/KI), 2015-10-02, 15:07  like dislike  Spam?  
 #818905
4; catwoman, auf jeden Fall.

4; Jim, to me it sounds like some Victorian servant...
Antwort: 
von Lllama (GB/AT), Last modified: 2015-10-02, 15:12  like dislike  Spam?  
 #818906
I don't know if I would say it is degrading; I agree more with uffie and the OED that it is dated - http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/charwoman
People in the sixties still had chars/charwomen, but nowadays they have cleaners or cleaning ladies.

From the same link - obscurely related to chore
Under chore http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=chore&allowed_in_frame=0 has Chore, a corruption of char, is an English word, still used in many parts of England, as a char-man, a char-woman; but in America, it is perhaps confined to New England. It signifies small domestic jobs of work, and its place cannot be supplied by any other single word in the language. (Quoted from Noah Webster)

Interesting :-)
Chat:     
yes, interesting  #818907
von uffie (GH/KI), 2015-10-02, 15:14  like dislike  Spam?  
that's why chore relates so often to household tasks...
A routine task, especially a household one: her illness made even daily chores like shopping difficult (OED)
( http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/chore )
Chat:     
char / charwoman / charlady in my view corresponds to Putzfrau which is less appreciative than Reinmachefrau ~ cleaner  #818908
von Proteus-, 2015-10-02, 15:16  like dislike  Spam?  193.83.225...
From people who do not even bother to enquire after the person's name, I have even heard the cruel bowdlerization die Putzen'Moment, mir scheint, die Putzen braucht was!'
Antwort: 
von Windfall (GB), Last modified: 2015-10-02, 15:24  like dislike  Spam?  
 #818910
I think charwoman needs labelling (for British English too). [archaic] might be the right one. It sounds Victorian to me too, as does "char" and "charlady". I don't think any job has been described as "charwoman" in my lifetime (I think cleaners would laugh if you called them that).
I've never heard anyone described as a "scrubwoman", so unless that's regional that one perhaps needs a "rare" on it (it doesn't sound very polite either).
"Daily help" is more frequently just "daily" http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/daily-help, and is probably pretty much restricted in usage to use by ladies who lunch and older people. Despite the fact Collins doesn't mention this, it ought to refer to someone who comes to clean someone's house daily (or at least several times a week). You wouldn't call a company cleaner a daily and you wouldn't call a cleaner who cleans your house every other Tuesday a cleaner. It's specifically a term for someone who cleans a home and comes regularly to that home (i.e. more than once a week).
"Mrs Mop" probably ought to be marked "informal" or "colloquial" as well as dated.
"Cleaning lady" is also a tricky one. We tend to say "cleaner" over here nowadays. "Cleaner" is certainly the most neutral job description. "Cleaning lady" was definitely used in my youth and I think people may still use it, but it's one of those job titles that I would worry might offend. "Cleaning woman" is similar. I don't think that's definite enough that you could put it in the entry, but I figure it's useful for people to know, so I'm saying it here.
Chat:     
Some people love using archaic words for the sake of irony. Among them, char and its variants are quite popular.   #818913
von Proteus-, 2015-10-02, 15:53  like dislike  Spam?  193.83.225...
Personally, I try to avoid those who are either incapable of irony or feel uneasy about it — which is quite a lot of my contemporaries and luminaries of earlier ages.
Antwort: 
bei denen = in their household/in their family  #818915
von 3mmm (DE), 2015-10-02, 15:56  like dislike  Spam?  
Antwort: 
von Windfall (GB), 2015-10-02, 15:56  like dislike  Spam?  
 #818916
4;Proteus, it's one thing to use archaic words ironically, it's quite another to use them unintentionally because you didn't know because they weren't labelled as such when they looked them up.
Antwort: 
Of course, in a dictionary the words need labelling — perhaps dated  #818919
von Proteus-, 2015-10-02, 16:09  like dislike  Spam?  193.83.225...
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/charwoman (dated)
http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/charwoman (no labelling)
http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/charwoman (no labelling)
http://www.chambers.co.uk/search.php?query=charwoman&title=21st  (no labelling)
http://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/charwoman (British English old-fashioned)

The lower down and the higher up you move in polite society, the less people worry about offending in a sexist context. The whole business of sexism is essentially a middle-class gripe.
Chat:     
von Windfall (GB), 2015-10-02, 16:24  like dislike  Spam?  
 #818922
4;Proteus, enough money and power will insulate you against an awful lot.
Wikipedia(EN): Genetic_fallacy
Chat:     
von uffie (GH/KI), Last modified: 2015-10-02, 16:36  like dislike  Spam?  
 #818925
yes, Windfall, cleaner is gender neutral and therefore preferable in Br. Engl. these days.

German is not quite so sensitive about such things (yet); you'd have put Reinigungskraft instead of Putzfrau. Doesn't have quite the same ring to it though ;-)
Chat:     
von uffie (GH/KI), 2015-10-02, 16:35  like dislike  Spam?  
 #818926
Windfall, do you have the time to do the re-opens?
Chat:     
16:24 As Aristotle knew, what keeps a state going is the middle class. Its erosion often spells disaster.   #818932
von Proteus-, 2015-10-02, 16:51  like dislike  Spam?  193.83.225...
Antwort: 
von Windfall (GB), 2015-10-02, 16:53  like dislike  Spam?  
 #818933
I'll do a few to get the ball rolling. I don't think things in square brackets cause outvotes, so if anyone wants different tags, feel free to just suggest them/vote for them.
Antwort: 
von Windfall (GB), 2015-10-02, 16:56  like dislike  Spam?  
 #818935
Collins says "scrubwoman" is US, which explains why I've never heard it. US speakers, is it still current? Should I mark it [Am.] or [Am.] [dated] or something else? http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/scrubwoman
Chat:     
von uffie (GH/KI), 2015-10-02, 17:12  like dislike  Spam?  
 #818938
Antwort: 
Scrubwoman  #818944
von Jim46 (US), 2015-10-02, 17:25  like dislike  Spam?  
I don't remember ever hearing that, and certainly would never use it.   Maybe rich people do.
Antwort: 
von Windfall (GB), 2015-10-02, 17:56  like dislike  Spam?  
 #818945
Hmm, any suggestions what we should do about "scrubwoman" then? It's in dictionaries. Perhaps [Am.] because Collins says it is, but [rare] because no one seems to have heard it. I'll open a separate thread to try and get more US opinions.
Chat:     
This is just an evil ruse  #818955
von Mookuh, 2015-10-02, 18:41  like dislike  Spam?  84.170.84....
It's not really safe to use words like this. Does anyone remember the film "Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid" ("Tote tragen keine Karos")? Ridgy Reardon (played by Steve Martin) wouldn't be pleased.

Wikipedia(EN): Dead_Men_Don't_Wear_Plaid

Neither is it good advice to annoy the broom operating manager.
Antwort: 
lt. OD dated  #818958
von ddr (AT), 2015-10-02, 19:24  like dislike  Spam?  
Aber Putzfrau ist ja heute wohl auch nicht die höflichste Job-Beschreibung.
Antwort: 
ddr: Stimmt.    #818966
von parker11 (DE), 2015-10-02, 20:47  like dislike  Spam?  
Andererseits halte ich "Reinigungsfachkraft" statt "Putzfrau" oder "Utility Manager" statt "Hausmeister" so richtig lächerlich, wenn nicht sogar so richtig verarschend. Der übliche deutsche Pejorativ ist übrigens ganz einfach "die Putze".
Antwort: 
scrubwoman (warum nicht einfach nur [archaic] , auch wenn es event. nur dated ist) - dann entfällt eine Länderkennung  #818968
von Wenz (DE), 2015-10-02, 20:53  like dislike  Spam?  
Antwort: 
von Wenz (DE), 2015-10-02, 20:59  like dislike  Spam?  
 #818969
Bei uns in der Zeitung sind die Stellen
Reinigungsfachkraft = z. B. für Arztpraxen, Büroräume, Gastronomie
Putzfrau = Privathaushalt (aber da schreiben sie auch so Zeugs wie "Perle gesucht") - ansonsten Zugehfrau (den Begriff habe ich noch nie vollinhaltlich verstanden, aber ich nehme an, dass die auch wäscht, die Betten abzieht, vorkocht usw., was eine Putzfrau wohl nicht macht).

http://essen.backpage.com/MiscJobs/suche-arbeit-als-putzfrau-oder-r...
Chat:     
von ddr (AT), 2015-10-03, 08:59  like dislike  Spam?  
 #819004
Zugehfrau kommt, glaub ich, daher, dass sie im Gegensatz zu einem Dienstmädchen oder anderem Hauspersonal nicht im Haus wohnt. Das dürfte also älter sein als Putzfrau. Bei uns ist bzw. war auch noch 'Bedienerin' üblich.

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