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 Indicating preferred translation »
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Frage:
Indicating preferred translation  
von geo255 (US), 2016-03-16, 18:12  like dislike  Spam?  
We have all experienced the verification quandary when a translation is technically correct but there is a better alternative already in dict.  Take, for example: working place  = Arbeitsstätte.  The better (more idiomatic) translation for 'working place' would be 'workplace' and for 'Arbeitsstätte' it would be 'Arbeitsplatz' (in referring to where one works).
What is your opinion in cases like this of indicating the more idiomatic translation along with the technically correct one, so: working place [better: workplace] = Arbeitsstätte [besser: Arbeitsplatz]

I realize this can increase disagreement among verifiers and certainly this isn't common practice among other online dictionaries, maybe for this reason.

Anyway, I think the idea is worth some discussion here in the Forum.
Antwort: 
Indicating preferred translation  #837622
von joerg (DE), Last modified: 2016-03-16, 18:33  like dislike  Spam?  
I think the idea to add such information is good and increase the usefulness of dict.cc. The tags could also read "[more frequent: xyz] and [gebräuchlicher: xyz]" I think.
Chat:     
Where to start? Where to stop?  #837623
von parker11 (DE), 2016-03-16, 18:39  like dislike  Spam?  
Antwort: 
von geo255 (US), 2016-03-16, 18:53  like dislike  Spam?  
 #837624
Yes, that's an obvious problem, Parker.  The question then becomes is the advantage of guiding the user to the best (most common or most idiomatic) translation greater than the disadvantage of opening up endless disagreements.  

We do indicate alternate, non-standard spellings [spv.].  Maybe one option is simply to color a good, common, idiomatic translation in green and one that is less common, but technically correct, in red.
Antwort: 
better: ...   #837627
von Wenz (DE), Last modified: 2016-03-16, 19:35  like dislike  Spam?  
Bin dagegen.
Wir haben andere Instrumente, um Einträge zu kennzeichnen.
z. B. erinnere ich mich an
http://forum.dict.cc/forum-questions/detail-834769-Was-bedeutet-der...

Ich bin der Meinung, daß wir hier nicht werten sollen, was besser ist. Vor allen Dingen kennen wir auch nicht das Textgut, das der Übersetzer vor sich liegen hat. Häufig ist da ein Ausdruck für ihn besser, den dict dann aber als "schlecht / schlechter" gekennzeichnet hat. Nein, ich finde eine Wertung in der Form nicht gut.
Antwort: 
Wenz  #837631
von geo255 (US), 2016-03-16, 20:09  like dislike  Spam?  
I understand your reservations which I share to some extent.  However, I wasn't really recommending that we judge what is a "better" translation although that was the word I used in my example.  Rather, I was looking for some mechanism to warn the user that a particular translation, while technically correct, was not as idiomatic or commonly used as another one which was already in dict.

Of  course what is "more idiomatic" is often a subjective judgment, but I had in mind dealing with translations which really weren't idiomatic at all and were rarely used compared to others.  I think with that restriction there would be a lot less disagreement.
Antwort: 
Falls eine Übers. eher selten/untypisch ist, setze ich das übliche Wort stets in eckigen Klammer dahinter.  #837635
von rabend (DE/FR), Last modified: 2016-03-16, 20:17  like dislike  Spam?  
Nur das Wort, basta.

Der Klammerhinweis genügt mE, denn es wird von den Nutzern wohl intuitiv verstanden, dass diese Ergänzung/Erklärung den üblichen Ausdruck darstellt.

Ich halte das jedenfalls für die einfachste Lösung. Man lehnt sich da nicht allzu weit aus dem Fenster.
Chat:     
von ddr (AT), 2016-03-16, 21:19  like dislike  Spam?  
 #837640
Just a footnote: Arbeitsstätte and Arbeitsplatz are sometimes but by no means always the same.
Antwort: 
DDR  #837647
von geo255 (US), 2016-03-16, 22:47  like dislike  Spam?  
Yes, I understand that they can be equivalent in meaning, but my understanding is that Arbeitsplatz is the more customary term.  If I am wrong, then isn't that an argument for guiding the user towards the most common/most accepted choice in a translation?
Antwort: 
von Proofreader, 2016-03-17, 01:01  like dislike  Spam?  84.113.16...
 #837651
Der fundamentale Denkfehler bei diesem Vorschlag ist, dass es eine absolut "bessere" und absolut "schlechtere" Übersetzung gibt. Das ist nicht der Fall. Zwei Ausdrücke wie "Arbeitsplatz" und "Arbeitsstätte" können sich stilistisch unterscheiden ("Arbeitsstätte" ist z.B. gehobener als "Arbeitsplatz"), einer davon kann einen negativen Beigeschmack haben und der anderen nicht (was bei diesem Beispiel nicht zutrifft), und sie können in unterschiedlichem Kontext unterschiedlich zu bewerten sein, so ist z.B. Arbeitsstätte in einem Gesetzestext "idiomatischer" als "Arbeitsplatz", weil Arbeitsplatz mehrdeutig ist, Arbeitsstätte aber nicht.

Der Wortschatz einer Sprache ist leider - oder gottseidank - zu komplex für so eine simple Kennzeichnung.
Antwort: 
Proofreader  #837652
von geo255 (US), 2016-03-17, 02:26  like dislike  Spam?  
I think you misunderstood what my suggestion requires.  Certainly it is not correct to take a position of absolute better or worse.  Just take what you have said: 'Arbeitsstätte' is more elevated than 'Arbeitsplatz'.  A disambiguation for the former like [gehobener als Arbeitsplatz] might be very useful to the user without being so long that it clutters the entry.  Or, alternatively [idiomatischer als 'Arbeitsplatz' in einem Gesetzestext]

Certainly it isn't possible to also indicate that 'Arbeitsstätte' is more idiomatic in a legal context because of limitations in the length of translations.  However, half a loaf is better than none and comments like the ones you have made do not require any form of absolute "better or worse" judgments.
Antwort: 
von Proofreader, 2016-03-17, 03:08  like dislike  Spam?  84.113.16...
 #837653
4;geo255: Are you veering from your initial suggestion: "working place [better: workplace] = Arbeitsstätte [besser: Arbeitsplatz]"?

Comparisons between words would inevitably escalate out of control. They'd have to include differences in meaning, style, usage, and if you take, for instance, the word field "Arbeitsplatz, Arbeitsstätte, Arbeitsstelle - workplace; place of work; working place" you get no less than nine possibilities to combine the single words. The amount of information added would be a perfect basis for computer programming and machine translation, but would make the dictionary unusable for humans.
Antwort: 
I share the reservations of Wenz, ddr, and proofreader  #837661
von tomaquinaten (US/DE), Last modified: 2016-03-17, 07:58  like dislike  Spam?  
Identifying a preferred form would be in most cases extremely difficult, because often subtle differences of meaning and usage determine which term is to be preferred in a given context. This is well illustrated by geo255's example:
--  "working place"
         When I read that "workplace" is the preferred term, I was astonished. in my colloquial "Chicago-ese", I
         have been using "working place" ever since my childhood; I never used "workplace". In fact, I needed
         to look it up to verify that it is indeed the term given in the dictionaries.
         Given the large number of English compounds formed with a participle -- M-W Unabridged lists 18
         compounds with "working", and there are innumerable everyday words like "meeting place", "hiding
         place", "parking place", etc. --, it is hard to understand why this form is not found in the dictionaries.
         Oxford, however is an exception
         [http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/working-place?...];
         there three meanings are listed: (1) the place where work is done, (2) "formerly" in the sense of
         "workshop" (a now obsolete term), and (3) " (in later use chiefly) the place in a mine at which
         excavation is carried out". An interesting discussion at
         http://forum.wordreference.com/threads/working-place-workplace.2206...
         reveals that "working place" is frequently used in a specific sense, especially in official regulations, to
         designate the immediate surroundings in which a person performs his/her tasks, i.e. his/her desk,
         office, or, as in Oxford, the mining face, where excavation is currently carried out.
--   "Arbeitsstätte" vs. "Arbeitsplatz"
          Duden [http://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/Arbeitsstaette] gives two meanings for "Arbeitsstätte"
           qualifying only the first, i.e. the one corresponding to the current, special meaning of "working place"
           as "gehoben" Here are the Duden definitions:
           1.    (gehoben) zum Arbeiten bestimmte Stätte, bestimmter Raum
           2.    Stätte, Stelle beruflicher Tätigkeit, Arbeitsplatz, Arbeitsstelle
          http://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/Arbeitsplatz, however, indicates no clear preference:
           1 a   zum Arbeiten bestimmter Platz
           1 b   Arbeitsstätte      

For me, the moral of the story is that it is better to work with usage tags and disambiguations. In rare cases, it may be possible to identify a preferred term valid across the board, but even then, I prefer rabend's solution of putting it in brackets behind the less frequent term, in extreme cases within a tag like "[rare for: ...]".
Antwort: 
Proofreader  #837680
von geo255 (US), 2016-03-17, 10:29  like dislike  Spam?  
I don't believe I have veered from my original suggestion since I said that my choice of "better/besser" in the disambiguation was a mistake (20:09).

I don't know if word comparisons would escalate out of control because I am talking about dealing only with the most obvious cases.  Whether or not there could be general agreement on this limit and whether the limit would be effective in limiting disagreements are open questions, I think.
Antwort: 
tomaquinaten  #837681
von geo255 (US), 2016-03-17, 10:37  like dislike  Spam?  
Strange about your Chicago-ese, because I did a Google Ngram on "working place" and it is hardly used on the internet.  I certainly don't doubt that Chicagoans like yourself use that term but would not the dict user be better served by being told of a much more commonly used alternative?  We already do this with the "rare/selten" tag, so in this case I am only talking about a small extension of that idea and one that can have some degree of objectivity by use of applications like Ngram.

Also, I hope I didn't give the impression that we should attempt such treatment on most proposed translations but only on ones where the verifier feels the proposed one should be accompanied by some kind of suggested limitation and this is just taking what we already do a bit further.
Antwort: 
geo255  #837694
von tomaquinaten (US/DE), 2016-03-17, 13:11  like dislike  Spam?  
In describing my reactions to your example , "working place [better: workplace]" I did not mean to make my Chicago-ese a linguistic standard, but only to suggest how difficult it might prove to make and to secure agreement about such judgments. Despite the Ngram evidence, I believe a good case could be made, on the basis of Oxford and the Wordreference.com thread for preferring "working place", when the immediate area, where the person works is meant, and in this case, if Duden is to be believed "Arbeitsstätte" would then be the more correct translation. But making such fine distinctions requires a measure of linguistic savvy, refined research, and complex hermeneutic interpretation of example sentences in a large linguistic corpus that, as a rule, can only be expected of professional linguists, who do not rely on G-hits or Ngram statistics. Personally, I think we are leaning far enough out the window, when we use the "rare", "obsolete", or "wrong for" tags.
Antwort: 
tomaquinaten  #837696
von geo255 (US), 2016-03-17, 13:27  like dislike  Spam?  
I agree with you that we should be circumspect in choosing on which translations to offer more usage guidance and "working place" might not be a good example.

Perhaps the most judicious practice is to offer an alternate in square brackets without comment, so even with our bad example: working place [workplace].  This does not, obviously, attempt to prioritize an alternative.

One downside to this procedure is that, in my observation, new translations with anything in square brackets tend to be avoided by verifiers.
Chat:     
... irgendwie habe ich mehr und mehr den Eindruck, ...  #837844
von Hilli (DE), 2016-03-19, 20:42  like dislike  Spam?  
... das ein schlichter, einfacher, schnörkelloser Eintrag, so ohne subject, tag und alle möglichen Klammern, einfach nur noch bäh ist. :(
 
Chat:     
von uffiee, 2016-03-20, 11:23  like dislike  Spam?  80.144.100....
 #837873
Hilli, das kommt daher, das alles, was normal und schlicht ist, bereits im dict drin ist. Was jetzt (und seit einiger Zeit) noch dazukommt sind entweder spezialisierte Einträge, Botanik, Zoologie etc. oder Einträge, die sich nur in einem bestimmten Zusammenhang entsprechen...
Antwort: 
Hilli  #837892
von geo255 (US), 2016-03-20, 13:59  like dislike  Spam?  
Even with "standard" translations, as time goes on the need to separate a translation far less common and less idiomatic than one directly in the mainstream may well arise.  So reopens of those apparently simple, straightforward translations may occur.

Also, as uffiee pointed out, the current crop of translations tend to be trickier and more nuanced.  As language itself evolves over time so does dict.

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