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Frage:
I shall, I shall  
von Deseret (SI), 2017-05-08, 08:55  like dislike  Spam?  
When he was going up to the gate, I began to take leave of him, and to wish him a good reception above. So he said, I shall, I shall. Then parted we asunder, and I saw him no more.

What does "I shall" refer to, does it mean: "I shall have a good reception"?
Antwort: 
Assumption  #870203
von Catesse (AU), 2017-05-08, 10:04  like dislike  Spam?  
"To wish him a good reception above". There is the assumption that what was actually said was: "I hope that you have a good reception above." Only then does "I shall (have a good reception)" make sense.
Context: does "above" mean heaven and "the gate" mean "the Gate of Heaven"?
Chat:     
von Deseret (SI), 2017-05-08, 12:52  like dislike  Spam?  
 #870214
Yes, the context relates to heaven.

I found the following dictionary definition of "shall":
Archaic
a. To be able to.
b. To have to; must.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/shall

Could it mean something like "I'll make it, I'll make it!"
Antwort: 
"to shall" is an auxiliary verb which also replaced "to will" in the first person  #870219
von Baccalaureus (DE), 2017-05-08, 13:50  like dislike  Spam?  
Antwort: 
von Windfall (GB), 2017-05-08, 13:53  like dislike  Spam?  
 #870220
4;Bacca, you can't put a "to" in front of "shall" or "will", but otherwise I agree, it means the same as "I will, I will" here.
Antwort: 
No.  #870221
von Catesse (AU), Last modified: 2017-05-08, 14:25  like dislike  Spam?  
Maybe I should have written: "I hope that you will have a good reception." ("Yes, I shall.") These are both simply future tense. We were drilled at school: "Shall" for yourself, "will" for other people. For emphasis or determination, reverse the order.
Because both "will" and "shall" are contracted to 'll (I'll, we'll, you'll, they'll), people have largely lost their feeling for the difference, and it is futile to try to reimpose the rules. For those who want to know the traditional correct form, which still applies in careful writing:
It is wrong to say: "I will be 18 next month." Your "will" has nothing to do with it; unless you die before then, it is going to happen.
"I will help you." Correct. You are making a promise, and it is within your capability to carry it out, or not.
Example of the reverse situation: https://www.army.gov.au/our-history/traditions/the-ode (By the way, the maroon-coloured medal ribbon on the left side of the soldier at the microphone is indeed the Victoria Cross.)
"They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old;
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember them."
Three examples of "emphasis or determination".
They shall grow not old: we vow not to let their memory fade.
We will remember them: we make this promise.
Mundane example of the "reverse situation".
Dad to toddler: Go to bed.
Toddler: Won't. (determination) (will not)
Dad: Oh, yes, you shall. (a determined threat to use force).
But the ordinary future: I shall, we shall; he will, she will, you will, they will.
It is up to you to decide whether to follow these basic rules. Most people will not know any better anyway.
4; Windfall: Technically, "I will" would be wrong here. The reception does not depend on the will of the speaker; it is a simple prediction of a future event. That being said, this form would be used by many people. Unfortunately, maybe even by most. But this was written at a time when literacy and adherence to "proper" grammar were valued.
Chat:     
von Windfall (GB), Last modified: 2017-05-08, 14:39  like dislike  Spam?  
 #870223
4;Catesse, it's an age thing. I would argue that this was an artificial distinction, which no longer applies in modern English and is only used by people over a certain age. Languages change over time. This is one of the changes that has happened to English. It is my understanding that that differentiation between "will" and "shall" that you describe is no longer perceived by most young and middle-aged native English speakers (it is certainly not a differentiation that is meaningful to me) and therefore differentiating between them like that no longer conveys meaning to most English speakers under a certain age. The question here is whether this differentiation was used when the text was written (it's from Pilgrim's Progress), or whether this differentiation arose later and whether it is in any case important to make it here. Much is lost in translation, whether from foreign languages or from an older version of the same language.
Technically, "I will" is wrong here in the version of English you speak. It is perfectly correct in the version of English I speak.
Antwort: 
Catesse's explanation sound  #870227
von Zuchi1, 2017-05-08, 15:45  like dislike  Spam?  185.17.205...
"Shall" and "will" not always interchangeable.
Antwort: 
von Windfall (GB), Last modified: 2017-05-08, 15:54  like dislike  Spam?  
 #870228
4;Zuchi1,
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/usage/shall-or-will
The traditional rule is that shall is used with first person pronouns (i.e. I and we) to form the future tense, while will is used with second and third person forms (i.e. you, he, she, it, they). For example:
I shall be late.
They will not have enough food.
However, when it comes to expressing a strong determination to do something, the roles are reversed: will is used with the first person, and shall with the second and third. For example:
I will not tolerate such behaviour.
You shall go to the ball!
In practice, though, the two words are used more or less interchangeably, and this is now an acceptable part of standard British and American English; however, the word shall is now seldom used in any normal context in American English.
Wikipedia(EN): Language_change
Language change is variation over time in a language's phonological, morphological, semantic, syntactic, and other features. It is studied by historical linguistics and evolutionary linguistics. Some commentators use the label corruption to suggest that language change constitutes a degradation in the quality of a language, especially when the change originates from human error or prescriptively discouraged usage.[1] Descriptive linguistics typically does not support this concept, since from a scientific point of view such changes are neither good nor bad.
Chat:     
Thank you for you exhaustive explanations.  #870238
von Deseret (SI), 2017-05-08, 17:21  like dislike  Spam?  
Antwort: 
Not always interchangeable  #870243
von Zuchi1, 2017-05-08, 21:04  like dislike  Spam?  185.17.205...
Prescriptive obligations and prohibitions with sanctions for example should use "shall", as compliance is not a voluntary matter nor can the obligations be ignored at will.

Windfall, There had been several instances when I knew your reply was not accurate, from recollection relating to a cheque and your translation of Berufung.  However, without substantive knowledge of those subject matters, fudging was excusable.

Languages evolve - axiomatic.
Chat:     
von Windfall (GB), 2017-05-08, 21:35  like dislike  Spam?  
 #870244
4;zuchi1,  I look forward to seeing the evidence you have to add to the Berufung thread to improve on my answer. This is a repeated issue in legal translations, so if you know a better answer, that will be a highly valuable addition.  If you have better information or evidence than me on other topics, or even a different opinion from me, please do add to threads (including old ones - these can be easily found by people googling for information). I am not always right and the variant of English I speak is not always representative of British English throughout the UK (in particular it often differs from the usage of those older or younger than me or from different regions, so I welcome input from other forum members).
In this case though, I would like to point out that it was specifically in cases such as Deseret's text, where the use of "shall" appears to be as a future tense, that I am arguing that "will" and "shall" are now generally used interchangeably by younger speakers. I do not dispute that there are some specific cases where "will" and "shall" are not interchangeable and nor do I dispute that the interchangeable usage that does exist is not shared by all speakers.
Chat:     
von themadhatter (GB), 2017-05-08, 23:51  like dislike  Spam?  
 #870256
Irrespective of other threads, what Windfall gives in this one is a succinct and entirely correct summary.
Antwort: 
Zuchi or Zuchi1 or Zuchi876578? Multiple identities? Where does Zuchi??? anchor his native speakerism?  #870257
von Proteus-, 2017-05-08, 23:55  like dislike  Spam?  193.83.224....
a Zuchi — Native country  HONG KONG HONG KONG
              Resident country  GERMANY GERMANY
              Native languages   English, Chinese
Statistics for Zuchi
Registration 2011-06-28
Last Activity 2016-08-06
Forum Answers 32
b Zuchi 1 — four posts between 15 / 16 February 2017
forum.dict.cc: Zuchi
c Zuchi1 — ten posts, nine since 5 May 2017
forum.dict.cc: Zuchi1
Chat:     
Examples  #870260
von Catesse (AU), 2017-05-09, 06:32  like dislike  Spam?  
First: the rules that Windfall gave were almost identical to those that I gave a few hours earlier. Just with different examples.
There are certainly cases where "shall" and "will" are most definitely not interchangeable.
Thous shalt not kill. Thou shalt not bear false witness. Thou shalt not commit adultery. Etc.
The funniest case that I have heard was a singer solemnly intoning the Lord's Prayer. "Thy Kingdom come. Thy shall be done." Ouch, ouch, ouch. It is not even a verb there.

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