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 xy had issues with you and *I* (why not *me*)? »
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Frage:
xy had issues with you and *I* (why not me)?  
von MartinKr, 2017-07-30, 22:53  like dislike  Spam?  185.145.66....
I have come across this from time to time, and thought it is a mistake, a slang, whatever. Now here is a very high IQ native speaker, no way he would make a mistake it is was one (at 0:05 - it is the first sentence in the video):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDgQVsXp4S0

Why does he say "you and I" instead of "you and me"? In german this would be 100% wrong:

"Der Anrufer hatte ein Problem mit dir und ich"
Chat:     
von MartinKr, 2017-07-30, 23:09  like dislike  Spam?  185.145.66....
 #875162
The native speaker is from Austin/Texas (not sure if this plays a role here)
Antwort: 
You have hit on a classic: an instance of hypercorrection (native speakers making an accidental error in their zeal to avoid a different error)  #875163
von Proteus-, 2017-07-31, 00:14  like dislike  Spam?  91.115.85....
Antwort: 
von MartinKr, 2017-07-31, 00:53  like dislike  Spam?  185.145.66....
 #875164
Thanks Proteus! Now i learned the word hypercorrection, which sounds really cool.

It still baffles me - i mean this guy is super smart, he can talk about philosophy and the validity of complex semantics like other people talk about the weather. No german native speaker out of elementary school would make this mistake in german, because it sounds terribly wrong, everyone will immediately realise this.

Doesn´t it sound totally wrong for english native speakers?
Chat:     
von MichaelK (US), Last modified: 2017-07-31, 01:47  like dislike  Spam?  
 #875165
People who are worried about their reputation or image are especially prone to the classic I-me hypercorrection. They are so afraid to say "me" instead of "I" that they say "I" even when it is wrong. They're usually not aware that they made a mistake.

But really, most people don't think it's a big deal. They know the person is hypercorrecting. They also understand that never making grammar mistakes is not a reliable indicator of intelligence. I know some highly intelligent people who speak nonstandard ("uneducated") English.

In 1920s Berlin, the educated person who bought the restaurant Lohengrin changed the name to Lohengrün. Now that drew some attention, and well-deserved guffaws.
Antwort: 
von MartinKr, 2017-07-31, 01:47  like dislike  Spam?  185.145.66....
 #875167
"They are so afraid to say "me" instead of "I" " - hmmm...why? does this implies that "me" sounds more... egoistic than "I"?
Chat:     
von MichaelK (US), Last modified: 2017-07-31, 02:41  like dislike  Spam?  
 #875169
It has nothing to do with being egoistic. In spoken English, making the "me instead of I" mistake is very common. So from the time you're knee-high to a grasshopper, adults tell you to say "I" and not "me." You begin to think "you and me" is always wrong, so you always say "you and I." Even if "you and I" is wrong. Proteus' parenthetical explanation (00:14) is right on the money.

My comment about being afraid was just to point out that regular people generally don't care if they say something correctly or not. So what if the listener has a cow, not my problem.
Chat:     
von Ursinus (GB), 2017-07-31, 09:45  like dislike  Spam?  
 #875176
"Between you and I" always makes me cringe, even though Shakespeare used it.
Wikipedia(EN): Between_you_and_I
Chat:     
Perhaps the bard burdened Antonio with a gross grammatical blunder by way of irony  #875191
von Proteus-, 2017-07-31, 13:33  like dislike  Spam?  194.118.52...
Chat:     
Die Dummen werden nie alle.  #875193
von Catesse (AU), 2017-07-31, 13:48  like dislike  Spam?  
People who say things such as "for he and I" tend to be pretentious snobs who operate by rote learning instead of true understanding; they will not understand even when things are explained to them patiently and in detail. Shakespeare? Perhaps he was taking the level of intelligence of the audience into consideration. On the other hand, he was a playwright, not an academic or grammarian. He was not even a very good pupil at school, and it was said that he had "small Latin and less Greek". Perhaps passionate genius cannot be contained within the confines of disciplined grammar.
Antwort: 
von MartinKr, 2017-07-31, 14:50  like dislike  Spam?  185.145.66....
 #875204
Thanks, interesting discussion. Of course everyone in every language makes mistakes from time to time, especially in spoken language. Now I would categorize the mistakes in 3-5 categories from "cringeworthy / everyone will immediately notice" to "it is so common that it is not a big deal".

In german f.e. a very typical mistake for native speakers is to make a superlativ in a case where it doesn´t make sense: "Der einzigste Fehler der mir aufgefallen ist..." - this is wrong because "einzige" is already "the only one", so it is wrong to build an absolute superlative here. But if you are raised in southern germany, this sounds great to your ears because you simply heard this really often - I think i probably heard this more often then the correct version as a kid.

I just was amazed because I thought the "me/I" thing was more in the "cringeworthy / immediately noticed" category (at least it would be in german). But if this is not the case, then it is not that big of a deal, got it.
Antwort: 
It gets confused with e.g. "John and I"  #875257
von dgiznya (UN), 2017-08-01, 05:29  like dislike  Spam?  
In the US when kids are little, many parents will correct their children when they say e.g.:
"John and me are going to the store".  The kids will say things like this a lot and the parents will correct them a lot.  "You mean 'John and I are going to the store'".  This gets beat into their heads so much (It seems to be the only grammatical expression for which parents correct their children.)  So much so, that it leads to folks always wanting to use "I" in expressions with more than one pronoun. Hence the tendency to say "you and I", which because they are so use to being corrected, sounds "right" to them, and it isn't cringeworthy or immediately noticed by everyone.

DG
Chat:     
thanks DG!   #875316
von MartinKr, 2017-08-01, 22:26  like dislike  Spam?  37.58.58....
"It seems to be the only grammatical expression for which parents correct their children." - haha, quite interesting observation

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