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von Jim46 (US), 2017-12-07, 17:01  like dislike  Spam?  
Britain has one more problem that won't go away.  One doesn't have to make all  mistakes
himself.  He can learn by watching others.
von Lllama (GB/AT), 2017-12-07, 17:57  like dislike  Spam?  
Lllama  #883486
von Jim46 (US), 2017-12-07, 18:11  like dislike  Spam?  
As stated in the heading, your article relies mostly or entirely on a single, unstated source.
"American Gun News" was using your own figures.  I don't deny that we also have a problem.
The point is, disarming citizens will not eliminate it.  You have proven that.
von timfefe (AU/AT), 2017-12-07, 22:26  like dislike  Spam?  
I wonder where American Gun News has got those UK statistics from. It says that the numbers are from the UK’s Office for National Statistics, but on the UK ONS website I could find no such stats. The only related thing I could find there was under the heading "Gun Crime", which, according to the ONS website, fell 7% in England and Wales (Crime Survey figures 23-Apr-2015). Stats more recent than April 2015 show gun possession offences but no numbers on crimes committed using firearms.

Is "American Gun News" a source of fake news and fake statistics?
the article proves nothing at all  #883490
von Gerhard- (DE), 2017-12-07, 22:33  like dislike  Spam?  
"If the number really is five times higher," - well, is it?
"that would make Britain more dangerous to live in than Chicago, one of America’s largest gun-free zones." - so, if you don't assume the worst case, Britain is less dangerous than a gun-free zone in the USA, isn't it? How dangerous must be a region in the US which is not gun-free?

von timfefe (AU/AT), 2017-12-07, 22:37  like dislike  Spam?  
Here are the actual stats published by the UK House of Commons, tited "Number of police recorded firearm offences" (Chart 2b):
2009: 8100 offences
2010: 8000 offences
2011: 7000 offences
2012: 6000 offences
2013: 5100 offences
2014: 4900 offences
2015: 4900 offences
2016: 5000 offences (i.e. 38% decline from 2009)

But the American Gun News says, and I quote
"Crimes involving firearms continue to rise every single year in Britain",
with the latest year reported by the American Gun News publication being 2016.
Perhaps the publcation should change the word "Gun" in its name to "Fake".
Boom boom! Explosive stuff this, isn't it?  #883495
von Proteus-, 2017-12-08, 00:59  like dislike  Spam?  194.118.234....
Fake news?  #883496
von Jim46 (US), 2017-12-08, 01:32  like dislike  Spam?  
Re-read the last four paragraphs of how the FBI and UK record homicides.  In the UK, it is
not tallied unless there is an arrest and conviction.  Golly, that sure improves the picture!
I don't know what they include or omit in "gun offenses".  But I do read many articles on this
same subject.

4; Gerhard:
Chicago is no longer a gun-free zone.  Citizens have had some rights restored.  The drug-fueled
gangs are are so many, they have even threatened war with the police.  They murder each other
(not entirely a bad thing), but innocents become regular victims.  Unlike Britain, our statistics count
all of it.  The concept of a gun-free zone is just as laughable as a drug-free zone.  Stupid politicians
give us such things.  Indeed, Chicago surely makes us look bad.  Perhaps you could call it a societal
von timfefe (AU/AT), 2017-12-08, 02:28  like dislike  Spam?  
Look, my less-than-exhaustive search on the UK ONS website found no backing for the stats quoted by American Gun News. Is American Gun News a source of fake news/stats? Maybe, and maybe not. This is not my main point. Now here’s the point:

Too many well-intended people quote news/stats from sources that publish them to promote a particular narrative, in this case anti-gun control. And they gleefully quote such news/stats to their friends, associates and colleagues without checking their veracity, without blinking an eye, when it suits THEIR beliefs. And this is a concern.
timfefe  #883498
von Jim46 (US), 2017-12-08, 02:35  like dislike  Spam?  
From the UK Office for National Statistics.  Up 27% in one year.   Ouch!

Offences involving firearms

Offences involving firearms7 increased by 27% (to 6,696) in year ending June 2017 compared with the previous year (5,269 offences). This was driven largely by a 25% increase in offences involving handguns (up to 2,791 from 2,224) and partly by an 18% increase in offences involving imitation weapons such as BB guns8 (up to 1,721 from 1,457), a 53% increase in offences involving shotguns (up to 652 from 427) and a 47% increase in offences involving unidentified firearms (up to 933 from 635). The latest rise continues an upward trend seen in firearms offences in the last few years, however, offences are still 31% below a decade ago (in the year ending March 2007; Figure 11).

Over the last year, over two-thirds (32 of the 439) of police forces recorded a rise in offences involving firearms. The force that showed the largest volume increase was the Metropolitan Police (accounting for almost 50% of the increase in England and Wales).
Bigger picture   #883499
von Proteus-, 2017-12-08, 03:25  like dislike  Spam?  194.118.234....
3. Prevalence and trends of offences involving firearms
Offences involving firearms make up a small proportion of overall police recorded crime. In the year ending March 2016, they were used in approximately 0.2% of all police recorded offences (excluding fraud), the same proportion seen for the last 4 years (Appendix Table 3.01). This is a lower proportion than seen 10 years ago when firearms were used in approximately 0.4% of all police recorded offences. More detail on the use of firearms as a proportion of selected offence types is included in the ‘Types of offences where firearms are used’ section. ...
This is the second consecutive annual increase in offences involving firearms but follows the decade between years ending March 2004 and March 2014 in which the number of offences involving firearms fell sharply from 24,094 to 7,729. The 8,399 offences recorded in the year ending March 2016 is around two-thirds lower (65%) than the peak (Figure 3.1; Appendix Table 3.02).
Comparative statistics — List of countries by firearm-related death rate  #883500
von Proteus-, 2017-12-08, 03:52  like dislike  Spam?  194.118.234....
Significant difference between alphabetical neighbours:
Country             Death total
United Kingdom           0.23
United States             10.54
Wikipedia(EN): List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

Of course, one's risk of getting gunned down is yet much greater in Brazil (21.2), Colombia (25.94), El Salvador (45.6), Guatemala (34.10), Honduras (67.18), Jamaica (30.72), Panama (15.11), Swaziland (37.16) and Venezuela (59.13). In a global perspective, isn't there a distinct whiff of the morgue about the Americas?
The sources (18:11) are stated in the footnotes. They are articles published by University of Sydney School of Public Health  #883501
von Proteus-, 2017-12-08, 04:01  like dislike  Spam?  194.118.234....
Australian LINK:  #883502
von Proteus-, 2017-12-08, 04:08  like dislike  Spam?  194.118.234....
von Jim46 (US), 2017-12-08, 04:13  like dislike  Spam?  
As I stated at 01:32, the UK doesn't count them all.  That makes the comparison worthless.
von aphoenix (US), 2017-12-08, 05:15  like dislike  Spam?  
not exactly worthless.
provides estimated conviction rates for 2010 to 2015.  For murder the rate is 60%.  60% of 10.5 is 6.3, still over an order of magnitude larger than 0.23.
von Jim46 (US), Last modified: 2017-12-08, 05:49  like dislike  Spam?  
That is not the issue.  The issue is what is the UK total, since they only report convictions?

My point is, disarming citizens doesn't work.  Not working there--won't work here.

What DOES work here is armed self-defense.
How the Home Office and the FBI actually track homicides (1:32)  #883506
von Dwight (US), Last modified: 2017-12-08, 07:25  like dislike  Spam?  
American Gun News' claim that "In the UK, the Home Office only tallies murders in cases where there has been a criminal conviction", whereas "If a person is murdered by any means, the FBI tallies it as a murder", mischaracterizes Home Office practice, misleadingly implying that the Home Office's totals are under-counted, relative to the FBI's.

The Home Office tallies police-recorded homicides in their "Homicide Index"; it does not break out any separate totals for murder, manslaughter, or infanticide. There is no wait for a criminal conviction to classify a homicide as such: "when the police initially record an offence as a homicide it remains classified as such unless the police or courts decide that a lesser offence, or no offence, took place":

The FBI, on the other hand, tallies its "murder and non-negligent manslaughter" total "based solely on police investigation as opposed to the determination of a court, medical examiner, coroner, jury, or other judicial body". In other words, the FBA does not try to correct its police-reported totals with any subsequent findings from courts, etc.:

Unlike the Home Office, the FBI does break out a separate annual total for "murders" (Table 7) but, as explained in the "Table 7 Data Declaration", the figures in this table are "estimations":
von xn (GB), 2017-12-08, 07:49  like dislike  Spam?  
why is this a matter
xn: this is not a matter, but every now and then there are discussions about miscellaneous stuff..   #883510
von parker11 (DE), 2017-12-08, 08:40  like dislike  Spam?  
These are usually marked with "Chat".
The figures in the Wikipedia article...  #883543
von Lllama (GB/AT), Last modified: 2017-12-08, 15:52  like dislike  Spam?  
...are for gun deaths and not just murders. Therefore, in all countries listed, whether someone has been convicted or not is irrelevant - a fire-arm related death will be included in the statistics, even if no one has been convicted of murder.

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