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Frage:
https://contribute.dict.cc/?action=show-history&id=1399033  
von Windfall (GB), Last modified: 2018-09-09, 18:28  like dislike  Spam?  
I just want to check that "ausführlich" is a comprehensible disambiguation of abschließend in the sentence "diese Liste ist nicht abschließend", which can be translated as "this list is not exhsustive". I had originally disambiguated "abscließend" with "erschöpfend" because you can also say "diese Liste ist nicht erschöpfend" to mean the same thing. If I read "diese Liste ist nicht ausführlich" my first thought would be either it meant it wasn't final, as in it might be altered later, which isn't what exhaustive means in contracts where the lawyers specify a list is not exhaustive. Alternatively, I worry it might be taken to mean that the list is not detailed. Can a native German speaker or two please add their opinion here so I can see if I'm worrying for nothing and have misunderstood how ausführlich should be understood? I'd also be happy to hear your views on what "diese Liste ist nicht abscließend" means in a contract in case I'm wrong on that. I understand it to fulfil the same purpose as "this list is not exhaustive", which is to let a court that is interpreting the contract know that a list given is not intended to limit the circumstances covered to those specifically mentioned in the list.
Antwort: 
Meiner Meinung nach nicht  #896743
von Gerhard- (DE), 2018-09-09, 19:16  like dislike  Spam?  
auch eine ausführliche Liste muss nicht abschließend/erschöpfend/vollständig sein, weil es dann doch zu viel würde, oder weil gar nicht alles bekannt ist, was auf die Liste müsste, oder weil nicht klar ist, ob die Liste abschließend ist oder nicht (gleich das erste Beispiel bei Linguee "Dient unter der
Annahme, dass diese Aufzählung nicht abschließend ist, ...").
Chat:     
von MichaelK (US), Last modified: 2018-09-10, 02:57  like dislike  Spam?  
 #896745
A set disclaimer is Die Liste erhebt keinen Anspruch auf Vollständigkeit, which, I believe, is what you're looking for (literally, "the list raises no claims as to its completeness").

I believe ausführlich refers only to a degree of detail, and abschließend refers only to placement in a text or statement. I think these words can't (or at least shouldn't) be used to state that something is complete or not within itself, like your list.

Google: "die liste erhebt keinen Anspruch auf vollständigkeit"
Chat:     
von Gerhard- (DE), 2018-09-09, 20:49  like dislike  Spam?  
 #896746
es kann z.B. juristisch durchaus von Bedeutung sein, ob eine Liste oder Aufzählung als abschließend angesehen wird oder nicht. Auch wenn das im Text nicht erwähnt wird, z.B. die Liste der Diskriminierungsgründe im Grundgesetz Art. 3 (3) oder in Artikel 14 der Europäischen Menschenrechtskonvention.
Antwort: 
exhaustive > abschließend / erschöpfend / vollständig / (A) taxativ; ausführlich > detailed, in great detail, getting full coverage etc.  #896747
von Proteus-, 2018-09-09, 21:52  like dislike  Spam?  62.47.204...
Chat:     
von MichaelK (US), Last modified: 2018-09-10, 02:58  like dislike  Spam?  
 #896749
4;Gerhard: You're right, an abschließende Aufzählung can neither be expanded nor interpreted to apply to similarities. The nicht abschließend then would indicate that the list or its purview could be expanded.

My impression was that Windfall just needed a disclaimer for a more or less mundane list. I didn't think about more weighty matters, but should have.
Antwort: 
von Windfall (GB), Last modified: 2018-09-10, 09:23  like dislike  Spam?  
 #896755
Thanks, everyone.
It sounds like "ausführlich" was an inappropriate disambiguation, but my original disambiguation (erschöpfend) was adequate. Does the English need disambiguation? I had "[e.g. This list is not exhaustive]" as a disambiguation because I wanted to orient people on lists and I wasn't sure if "abschließend" would work in other instances of exhaustive, such as "an exhaustive search".

4;Michael, I found a variant of "Diese Liste ist nicht abschließend" in a German legal text I needed to translate into English. I wasn't trying to translate "this list is not exhaustive" into German. It's possible that German lawyers have now seen so much translated English that this way of expressing it was originally translatorese, but has now spread to texts originally written in German. For me, the key point is that this phrase appears in German texts and translators need to know how to translate it.
Chat:     
von MichaelK (US), Last modified: 2018-09-10, 11:56  like dislike  Spam?  
 #896766
4;Windfall: As Gerhard pointed out, abschließend in the context of an enumeration is standard legal German. It has a specific and clear meaning in German law. First paragraph, first  sentence at the link:
Wikipedia(DE): Enumerationsprinzip
Antwort: 
von Windfall (GB), 2018-09-10, 12:11  like dislike  Spam?  
 #896768
4;Michael, I'm sorry, I don't understand the point you're making. Are you saying that the Proz entry is wrong and "not exhaustive" doesn't work for "nicht abschließend" (in which case the entry abschließend/exhaustive probably needs deleting and I need a suggestion for how I should translate it)? Or are you saying that "ausführlich" was a better disambiguation after all or that the disambiguation needs to be something else entirely? Or are you saying the entry needs careful disambiguation to show that this translation only works from German to English and not the other way round?
Chat:     
von MichaelK (US), Last modified: 2018-09-10, 13:38  like dislike  Spam?  
 #896776
No. no, all I'm saying is that the German legal abschließend in the context of a list has a clear and unmistakable meaning. I do not know what the exact legal equivalents are in the U.S. or the UK, or even if there are any.

I made my more recent comments in response to Gerhard pointing out that a part of my 02:57 comment is in error. In that comment, I claimed that abschließend can only refer to placement, which is not true. I don't really know what a 'disambiguation' is and don't want to get into that sort of thing.
Antwort: 
von Windfall (GB), 2018-09-10, 13:49  like dislike  Spam?  
 #896777
4;Michael, a "disambiguation" just means those terms we put in square brackets after a word to explain that it has one particular meaning, but not all possible meanings of that word, e.g. squalls [loud cries] Schreie {pl}
Chat:     
von MichaelK (US), Last modified: 2018-09-10, 14:01  like dislike  Spam?  
 #896778
Thanks, Windfall. Anything having to do with "Contribute" makes me very nervous. It's too complicated for me, and the internet battles over an entry or a deletion can be ferocious. I need to stay out of these discussions marked DICT.
Chat:     
von Windfall (GB), 2018-09-10, 14:08  like dislike  Spam?  
 #896781
4;Michael, yes, I know what you mean, it all gets very heated. Part of me wondered if I should just have left it and not even started this discussion and part of me wonders if it's going to be worth my while trying to get it changed, especially as I don't think we've come out with an entirely definite answer here and only the disambiguation is (probably) wrong.
Chat:     
von MichaelK (US), Last modified: 2018-09-10, 14:22  like dislike  Spam?  
 #896782
Same here: I'm asking myself often 'why did I get into this?' Probably because I'm retired and need to fill out one quiet morning hour with something German. I refuse to watch the U.S. news and no longer get a newspaper.
Chat:     
von timfefe (AU/AT), Last modified: 2018-09-10, 23:34  like dislike  Spam?  
 #896792
4;Windfall
The disambiguation "[ausführlich]" in the entry
exhaustive {adv} = abschließend [ausführlich]
is obviously wrong. See Proteus' clarification-post from yesterday 21:52.
Something could be provided in great detail (i.e. ausführlich) and still not be exhaustive.
However, this mistake is only in the disambiguaion so I'm not sure it's worth worrying about. Same applies to the marking "{adv}" next to "exhaustive".
Antwort: 
von aphoenix (US), Last modified: 2018-09-11, 17:14  like dislike  Spam?  
 #896802
Per Duden, er­schöp­fend means "sehr ausführlich".   https://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/erschoepfend  (I am assuming that you do not mean that the list is "ermüdend," (tiring), which makes little sense.)  Exhaustive does not mean "tiring" but rather "complete" -- "including all possibilities".
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/exhaustive  If I understand the discussion correctly, you are saying that exhaustive refers to breadth and ausfuehrlich refers to depth?  In that case,either the entry or the disambiguation or both are incorrect.  Since "abschliessend" is not defined in the Duden, I cannot say which with any certainty.  If the entry or disambiguation is incorrect, I hope that someone will correct it, but please do not tell me that "sehr ausfuehrlich" is correct and "ausfuehrlich", which, per Duden means "in allen Einzelheiten", so "sehr" is redundant, is wrong.   https://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/ausfuehrlich
Chat:     
von aphoenix (US), 2018-09-11, 00:37  like dislike  Spam?  
 #896803
In fact, I'll reopen it myself since "exhaustive" is not an adverb but rather an adjective.
Antwort: 
von Windfall (GB), 2018-09-11, 09:16  like dislike  Spam?  
 #896809
4;timfefe, I too think that it is wrong, but it seems that aphoenix (who changed the disambiguation in the first place to ausführlich) is not to be persuaded.
Antwort: 
von Windfall (GB), Last modified: 2018-09-11, 12:19  like dislike  Spam?  
 #896817
4;timfefe Btw, ignoring the adj/adv issue (sorry, I hit the wrong button and didn't notice), did you look back at the original entry in the history and see why this pair was actually entered and how it was originally disambiguated? What's your preferred translation of "Diese Liste ist nicht abschließend" in a legal context such as a contract?
Antwort: 
von timfefe (AU/AT), 2018-09-11, 15:30  like dislike  Spam?  
 #896823
4;Windfall
Yes, I can see that your original disambiguation "[erschöpfend]" was changed to "[ausführlich]".

There are two many issues with this entry - please see my comment in the entry's history page. IMO this entry is not in the interest of dict.cc's users and I'd recommend deletion.
Antwort: 
von Windfall (GB), 2018-09-11, 15:43  like dislike  Spam?  
 #896824
Thanks, timfefe. How do you propose making an entry to help dict users trying to look up the meaning of "abschließend" in "Diese Liste ist nicht abschließend"? What should they understand from this thread? Currently, I understand that quite a lot of people translate "Diese Liste ist nicht abschließend" as "This list is not exhaustive", but quite a few people object to that translation, but do not have an alternative suggestion. I too have been translating "Diese Liste ist nicht abschließend" as "This list is not exhaustive" and if this is wrong I would really like to know so I can change my translation of it in future.
Chat:     
von timfefe (AU/AT), 2018-09-11, 19:48  like dislike  Spam?  
 #896838
Duden defines "abschließend" as "letzt..., zum Schluss". This has nothing to do with exhaustiveness.
https://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/abschlieszend

You're asking what "Diese Liste ist nicht abschließend" means in English. I think it depends on the context, as is often the case. It's possible that what's meant is something along the lines of:
This list does not conclude the matter or discussion at hand, the list itself or what it describes is not in its final form, there may be changes, additions and/or deletions to come. This, IMO, is a separate matter from exhaustivness.
Chat:     
Another possibility:  #896839
von timfefe (AU/AT), Last modified: 2018-09-11, 20:14  like dislike  Spam?  
It's also possible that somebody has said or written "Diese Liste ist nicht abschließend" while meaning "This list is not exhaustive". In that case, this person has IMO used the wrong word "abschließend". Perhaps he/she was influenced by the English word "conclusive" (which has several different meanings).
Antwort: 
von Windfall (GB), 2018-09-11, 20:32  like dislike  Spam?  
 #896840
4;timfefe, I had understood the native German speakers on this thread to be saying it does mean "exhaustive" in this sense. I also understood the Proz entry I cited in the entry to say that. I can't currently see another probable meaning in contracrs, but I now understand that such entries will not be tolerated. I admit defeat.
Chat:     
von Gerhard- (DE), 2018-09-16, 22:28  like dislike  Spam?  
 #897089
Ob "exhaustive" der richtige juristische englische Begriff ist, kann ich nicht sagen.

"Erschöpfend" steht zwar nicht genau so im Duden (siehe aber Synonyme bei "exhaustiv"), aber die Bedeutung in Bezug auf die Liste ist hier "ausgeschöpft", d.h. die Liste kann nicht erweitert werden.

http://www.zpo.at/lexikon/taxative-aufzaehlung/
https://www.lexexakt.de/index.php/glossar/enumerativ.php
https://leges.weblaw.ch/dam/publicationsystem_leges/2001/2/LeGes_20...

Ähnlich bei Wikipedia(DE): Ersch%C3%B6pfend, das hat auch nichts mit "ausführlich" oder "ermüdend" zu tun
Antwort: 
von Windfall (GB), 2018-09-17, 09:31  like dislike  Spam?  
 #897093
Thanks, Gerhard. "Exhaustive" is the equivalent legal translation when talking about lists. Unfortunately it appears that entries of this nature are no longer tolerated in the dict, so people will have to read through this thread or go to Proz to find the answer instead.

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