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Frage:
US English punctuation with quote marks  
von Windfall (GB), Last modified: 2018-12-09, 12:07  like dislike  Spam?  
I have a sentence that [Edited:] I initially possibly incorrectly thought should be punctuated like this in British English:
You can find more information under the heading "How do we do that?".
Is it the same in US English or do I leave out the final full stop/period?
Antwort: 
von romy (CZ/GB), 2018-12-08, 14:24  like dislike  Spam?  
 #901375
I would say it needs the full stop. Several punctuation marks in a row are sometimes required and okay in all languages that I know.
Antwort: 
LINX  #901379
von Proteus-, 2018-12-08, 14:51  like dislike  Spam?  193.83.4....
Antwort: 
von Windfall (GB), 2018-12-08, 15:31  like dislike  Spam?  
 #901380
Thanks, Proteus. I guess on the basis of the following, that I need both punctuation marks: British style (more sensibly) places unquoted periods and commas outside the quotation marks. For all other punctuation, the British and American styles are in agreement: unless the punctuation is part of the quoted material, it goes outside the quotation marks.
Confirmation by a US speaker would still be good, though, as the same text is wrong about British English always favouring single quotes as the outside quotes - it does in some types of writing, but not in others.
4;Romy, annoyingly US and British punctuation conventions differ and just because something is logical or theoretically possible doesn't mean that either of our countries accepts it as correct! In my experience, British punctuation is generally more similar to German punctuation than US punctuation is (although obviously there are plenty of differences because of German rules on placing commas).
Antwort: 
von callixte (US), 2018-12-08, 16:18  like dislike  Spam?  
 #901382
According to C. Edward Good:

With only one exception, the period always comes inside the closing quotation marks.  This rule applies even if only one quoted word ends the sentence.  Thus: He said, "We need to tell the boss right away."  She reported that the boss was, in her words, "miffed."

The only exception, according to the Chicago Manual of Style, involves the use of single quotation marks in two situations:  to show translations of foreign words and to show philosophical or theological terms.
Translation:  He placed the 'bread" next to the mantequilla "butter".
Philosophical or Theological Term:  The professor discussed at length the meaning of "being".
Antwort: 
von Windfall (GB), 2018-12-08, 16:47  like dislike  Spam?  
 #901384
Thanks, callixte. What about my example eith a question mark inside the quotes? Is a period required after them, like it would be in UK English?
Antwort: 
von callixte (US), Last modified: 2018-12-08, 17:04  like dislike  Spam?  
 #901385
I believe the material I quoted provides the answer.  No second mark is required.  I have never seen that second mark used here.  This confirms it:
http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/marks/quotation.htm
Antwort: 
von Windfall (GB), 2018-12-08, 17:45  like dislike  Spam?  
 #901387
Thanks, callixte
Antwort: 
von aphoenix (US), 2018-12-08, 20:27  like dislike  Spam?  
 #901390
In AE, there would be no period.  The question mark already ends the sentence.
Antwort: 
von romy (CZ/GB), 2018-12-09, 00:42  like dislike  Spam?  
 #901399
That's weird. Can anybody confirm aphoenix's statement with a credible source? Leaving the sentence with the question mark of the quotation at the end would turn the whole sentence into a question, which it is not. The sentence merely states: Under the heading "How do we do that?" you can find more information. Full stop. the whole sentence is not a question - only the little quote inside of it is - and therefore the sentence needs the proper full stop at the end, no matter where you shift the quote in. That's at least how it is in German, but I always thought that all other languages and regional variants of languages follow the same logic principle.
Antwort: 
Agree with romy / 00:42 on the grounds of logic.   #901400
von Proteus-, 2018-12-09, 01:12  like dislike  Spam?  193.83.224....
A declarative sentence (also known as a statement) makes a statement and ends with a period. It's named appropriately because it declares or states something. These guys don't ask questions, make commands, or make statements with emotion. ... It must end with a period, not an exclamation mark or a question mark.
https://www.english-grammar-revolution.com/declarative-sentence.html
Chat:     
von aphoenix (US), Last modified: 2018-12-09, 02:13  like dislike  Spam?  
 #901401
Sorry, I see someone else already posted a link to the source.
Antwort: 
Only the question mark, before the quotation mark. No full stop.  #901402
von romy (CZ/GB), Last modified: 2018-12-09, 02:59  like dislike  Spam?  
4;aphoenix: Okay, you might be indeed right. It indeed says so in your link:

Occasionally — very occasionally, we hope — we come across a sentence that seems to demand one kind of punctuation mark within quotation marks and another kind of punctuation mark outside the quotation marks. A kind of pecking order of punctuation marks takes over: other marks are stronger than a period and an exclamation mark is usually stronger than a question mark. If a statement ends in a quoted question, allow the question mark within the quotation marks suffice to end the sentence.

   Malcolm X had the courage to ask the younger generation of American blacks, "What did we do, who preceded you?"


In this case which is equivalent to ours, they indeed would not set the final period. But who is the author of this link and what do they base their information on? I am not sure whether they are really credible and authoritative:

+The Guide to Grammar and Writing is sponsored by the Capital Community College Foundation, a nonprofit 501 c-3 organization that supports scholarships, faculty development, and curriculum innovation. I If you feel we have provided something of value and wish to show your appreciation, you can assist the College and its students with a tax-deductible contribution. For more about giving to Capital, write to CCC Foundation, 950 Main Street, Hartford, CT 06103. Phone (860) 906-5102 or email: jmcnamara4;ccc.commnet.edu. +
Chat:     
It is always nice to learn something new in linguistics. Thanks for the question, Windfall!  #901403
von romy (CZ/GB), 2018-12-09, 03:01  like dislike  Spam?  
Antwort: 
von aphoenix (US), Last modified: 2018-12-09, 03:32  like dislike  Spam?  
 #901404
Romy, it is traditional in the US to place the end-of-sentence punctuation within the quotation marks whether or not the punctuation applies to the quotation or the sentence.
Example:  Did you mean to say "The museum is only open on Thursdays?"
However, it is also considered acceptable by some to place the punctuation outside the quotation marks if it is not part of the quotation.
Example: Did you really mean to say that "the museum is only open Thursdays"?
To my knowledge, it is never ok to use two punctuation marks.  Thus, in AE,
' "How do we do that?". ' is wrong.   In fact, I searched for about fifteen minutes and did not find any indication anywhere that it is ever correct to end the sentence with multiple punctuation marks in English.  My recommendations for authoritative sources would be, in order of decreasing value: style guides, such as the Chicago Manual of Style; dictionaries, such as those published by Oxford, Cambridge, and Merriam Webster;  and grammar websites at universities.  

I would not recommend the source https://www.english-grammar-revolution.com/declarative-sentence.html to this audience for advice on punctuation because it makes overly broad generalizations in order to teach very basic language skills, thus leaving the reader completely adrift when it comes to punctuating more complicated sentences.
Antwort: 
 it is never correct to end the sentence with multiple punctuation marks in English  #901405
von romy (CZ/GB), Last modified: 2018-12-09, 04:13  like dislike  Spam?  
Thank you, aphoenix, that's what we are looking for in this forum: to find final answers for complicated linguistic questions. Just let's make sure that everybody is aware that the German and UK rules are sometimes the exact opposite of the US-American ones. In German and in British English it is perfectly alright to end a sentence with multiple punctuation marks.
Chat:     
von aphoenix (US), 2018-12-09, 10:12  like dislike  Spam?  
 #901418
Thanks, Romy.  That is useful to know.
Antwort: 
I was taught at school not to use multiple punctuation marks;  #901429
von Lllama (GB/AT), 2018-12-09, 11:43  like dislike  Spam?  
so I would have written Windfall's original sentence without a full stop.

I've found tese style guides:
https://www.ncl.ac.uk/media/wwwnclacuk/languageresourcecentre/files...
In the rare case where the question is about a quotation that ends in a question, the sentence should end with a single question mark before the closing quotation mark.  
Incorrect: Who said,"Et tu, Brute?"?  (The second question mark is redundant)  
Correct: Who said,"Et tu, Brute?"
(It could be argued that two question marks is a different situation from question mark and full stop.)

https://www.ox.ac.uk/sites/files/oxford/media_wysiwyg/University%20...
This doesn't directly address the issue, but has Full stop, exclamation mark and question mark Use one – but only one – of these at the end of every sentence. (Which is basically what I was taught.)

http://www.mhra.org.uk/style/9.3 For quotations which are either interrogatory or exclamatory, punctuation marks should appear both before and after the closing quotation mark:
The pause is followed by Richard’s demanding ‘will no man say “Amen”?’.
Why does Shakespeare give Malcolm the banal question ‘Oh, by whom?’?
which supports Windfall's version.

So, it's not necessarily just an AE/BE difference ;-)
Antwort: 
von Windfall (GB), 2018-12-09, 11:59  like dislike  Spam?  
 #901431
4;Lllama, that's interesting. I wasn't taught not to use multiple punctustion marks, but I was taught in the period when they mainly didn't teach us punctuation and what they did teach us was sometimes wrong. Certainly I'm used to putting punctuation marks outside of the quotes when the punctuation isn't part of the quote. But this one is different, as the punctuation the quote ends in isn't the punctuation the sentence would otherwise end in. If what you were taught generally later proved to be correct, I'm happy to accept this is another area where the British education system wasn't quite working for me and a lot of my generation (and may never work well in this area again, as most teachers now were taught in that period when grammar and punctuation were taught badly or not at all).
Antwort: 
von Windfall (GB), Last modified: 2018-12-09, 12:14  like dislike  Spam?  
 #901432
4;Lllama, I'm confused. Doesn't your last example suggest that in British English it should indeed have multiple punctuation marks and be:
You can find more information under the heading "How do we do that?".
(Except it wants single quotation marks and I've only ever worked for places whose in-house style demands double quotation marks in UK English.)

For quotations which are either interrogatory or exclamatory, punctuation marks should appear both before and after the closing quotation mark:
The pause is followed by Richard’s demanding ‘will no man say “Amen”?’.
Why does Shakespeare give Malcolm the banal question ‘Oh, by whom?’?
Antwort: 
Yes, that site agrees with you.  #901434
von Lllama (GB/AT), 2018-12-09, 12:56  like dislike  Spam?  
It appears to depend on the style guide, rather than be a fixed BE system.
But the AE speakers and sites seem to be unanimous; and that answers the original question :-)
Antwort: 
von Windfall (GB), 2018-12-09, 16:06  like dislike  Spam?  
 #901456
Thanks, Lllama. It's possible I'll never have a sentence that ends this way again, but it's good to know my options in both US and UK English.
Antwort: 
von Windfall (GB), 2018-12-09, 16:09  like dislike  Spam?  
 #901457
Thanks, aphoenix. That was just what I needed to know.

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