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Frage:
he wishes it to be acknowledged  
von newcallas (DE), 2019-11-15, 10:27  like -1 dislike  Spam?  
"He wishes it to be acknowledged that you also should have had music and writing credits ..."
Hallo!
Obiges aus einem Rechtsanwaltsschreiben (aus einem Roman). Jemand wird darüber informiert, dass ein Bekannter in seinem Testament zugegeben hat, ihn um Tantiemen betrogen zu haben, indem er das copyright allein für sich reklamiert hat und nun erklären möchte, dass die Person ebenfalls Anspruch auf Tantiemen gehabt hätte.
Dieses "he wishes it to be acknowledged" macht mir Probleme. Einräumen, zugeben, bestätigen, offiziell erklären, den Sachverhalt richtigstellen, seine Behauptung dahingehend korrigieren, dass .. Eigentlich ist es ja etwas Passives, in der Art von: Man soll nun zur Kenntnis nehmen", Er möchte nun, dass man weiß ...

Ich habe mich irgendwie verrannt ...
Chat:     
von MichaelK (US), Last modified: 2019-11-15, 15:07  like dislike  Spam?  
 #913855
Usually, when you wish for something to be acknowledged, you want a belief ("a body of opinion") held by a number of people to be corrected. In this case, the belief is that the dead person was entirely honorable; the correction being that he did wrong. Perhaps this helps with German.
Antwort: 
... Er wünscht ausdrücklich anzuerkennen, dass ...  #913856
von Proteus-, 2019-11-15, 14:45  like dislike  Spam?  217.149.164....
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von MichaelK (US), 2019-11-15, 14:54  like dislike  Spam?  
 #913858
The "to be" indicates that he especially wishes for all interested persons to acknowledge the error of his ways. But perhaps anzuerkennen does precisely that, I don't know.
Antwort: 
von Windfall (GB), Last modified: 2019-11-15, 16:46  like dislike  Spam?  
 #913863
I think it's this meaning of acknowledge: If you acknowledge a fact or a situation, you accept or admit that it is true or that it exists.
So actually, he himself accepts and admits that it is true that you should also have had music and writing credits, but also he wants other people to (know and) accept and admit that it is true as well. Can you say that with "Er möchte, dass man anerkennt..." or something like that? I think it's important that he wants other people to accept this as well as just stating he acknowledges it himself. Or maybe something with "anerkennen lassen"?
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von MichaelK (US), Last modified: 2019-11-15, 19:31  like dislike  Spam?  
 #913865
Usually, a testament is a wish list of what you want to happen after your death. But yes, there's nothing to preclude a testator to include an admission of wrong-doing. I was just commenting on the fact that wanting something to be acknowledged, generally means wanting others to acknowledge something. I agree that expressing that desire is, in this case, an implicit admission of wrong-doing.

For this letter (not the testament!), my feeble German try would be Er wünscht, dass es allgemein anerkannt wird, dass auch Sie...
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Can a testator — privately or through his solicitor — oblige third parties to acknowledge anything?   #913869
von Proteus-, 2019-11-15, 21:40  like dislike  Spam?  217.149.164....
His own acknowledgement is the only binding declaration he can make.

The passive construction seems to be one of the quirks of expression characterizing the legal profession. The barrister would exclaim in court, Why was the road crossed by the chicken?
Antwort: 
von Windfall (GB), 2019-11-15, 21:48  like dislike  Spam?  
 #913870
4;Proteus, English doesn't tend to love the passive like German does (which is why I sometimes have so much difficulty working out who or what is meant when a passive is used in a German text). I really think he wants others or maybe a court to acknowledge this rather than wanting to express his own acknowledgement. Obviously I can't be certain, but speaking as a native English speaker, this doesn't sound like the intended meaning to me
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...  #913871
von Proteus-, 2019-11-15, 21:56  like dislike  Spam?  217.149.164....
A legal professional (10:27, 3rd line from the top) ought to know that no testator is capable of obliging third parties unless provided for by the law.

I should think this is a legal issue rather than a matter of native speakerism.
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NB: Native speakers all over the world have weird ideas in legal matters.   #913872
von Proteus-, 2019-11-15, 21:59  like dislike  Spam?  217.149.164....
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von MichaelK (US), 2019-11-15, 22:10  like dislike  Spam?  
 #913873
The attorney is relating the testator's wish to someone. We don't know the actual wording in the testament.

The passive voice is appropriate (and often preferable)  if that which is acted upon is at the center of attention, if the person performing an act is unknown or if the subject is deemed irrelevant. Such conditions exist quite a bit  in legal affairs, so it's not surprising to see attorneys use the passive voice a lot. But I agree--it's overused, and often to intentionally obfuscate.
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PS (emphasis added by me)  #913875
von Proteus-, 2019-11-15, 22:24  like dislike  Spam?  217.149.164....
... If you ask a lawyer for the reason for including nouns instead of verbs, writing in the passive voice or using Latin phrases then they will say that it for the avoidance of any doubt, but many people believe that this is disingenuous because if your command of English is good enough, you should be able to write a watertight document without the need for archaic terms.

https://www.legalenglish.co.uk/grammar-of-legal-english/4593991817
Antwort: 
PPS  #913876
von Proteus-, 2019-11-15, 22:33  like dislike  Spam?  217.149.164....
The trouble with getting rid of terms considered archaic in general usage is that such terms may still retain a significance of their own in the legal sphere. The same goes for certain clusters of words or legal expressions.

If you replace them with general English you more often than not end up with lengthy paraphrases that turn out to be much unwieldier than accustomed legalese.
Antwort: 
von Windfall (GB), 2019-11-15, 22:35  like dislike  Spam?  
 #913877
4;Proteus, perhaps this could be solved by some form of passive in German. I acknowledge that native speakers are generally not good on specialist areas of their language that they are not familiar with. Your understanding is different from mine, but could be correct. If you have knowledge of how English-speaking lawyers speak that exceeds mine, then that's good and useful. I don't rule out your understanding based on my native English perspective, but it wouldn't be my first thought.

I don't think a testator can force anyone to acknowledge anything, but they can want things to happen. For instance, I think a testator might have spent their whole life denying something, but want other people to know and acknowledge the truth after their death. I know we often use somewhat imprecise language in English, for instance saying "ask" when we mean something stronger than that, but saying you want something can be just that -.an expression of a desire. I don't think you're going to believe a word I say here and maybe you're right not to. But something worth bearing in mind is that non-lawyer native English speakers listening to the lawyer within this novel or non-lawyers reading the novel may well understand the same thing as me. If the author is a native English-speaking  non-lawyer, the author may even have intended the meaning I understand. Nevertheless, I am happy to acknowledge that your translation may well be correct or at the very least adequate for the context. Are you able to tell us what your own legal experience is?
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My legal quals? I read law in Austria, Germany and at the London School of Economics.  #913878
von Proteus-, 2019-11-15, 22:46  like dislike  Spam?  217.149.164....
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However ...  #913880
von Proteus-, 2019-11-15, 22:49  like dislike  Spam?  217.149.164....
you may be right as to what the author meant and as to the legal expertise both of the writer and of the general public reading this sort of thing.
Antwort: 
von Windfall (GB), 2019-11-16, 08:25  like dislike  Spam?  
 #913883
Thanks, Proteus! That's impressive. I've always assumed you had a law background, but that's even more impressive than I had imagined
Antwort: 
von newcallas (DE), Last modified: 2019-11-16, 11:43  like dislike  Spam?  
 #913884
Erst einmal danke4;alle!

"... Er bringt sein Bedauern darüber zum Ausdruck und möchte den Sachverhalt nunmehr offiziell dahingehend korrigiert wissen, dass Sie als dritte Partei gleichberechtigt an der Entstehung der in Rede stehenden Werke  beteiligt gewesen sind und sowohl Anspruch auf die Nennung als Co-Autorin gehabt hätten, wie auch auf den daraus resultierenden Anteil am Gewinn. Er hat unsere Kanzlei beauftragt, die erforderlichen juristischen Schritte zu unternehmen oder: in diesem Sinne für ihn tätig zu werden. (Die Angaben zur Urheberschaft müssen berichtigt werden, nehme ich an, genaue Summen errechnet.)
Als Entschädigung für bis dato entgangene Tantiemen blablabla (er vermacht der Dame eine halbe Million Pfund)

Wie gesagt, es ist ein  Roman. Natürlich soll der Brief sich lesen wie von einem Anwalt, aber Hauptsache ist, dass der Leser versteht, um was es geht (obwohl das vorher schon im Raum stand, dieser Brief ist quasi nur eine Bestätigung)
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von MichaelK (US), Last modified: 2019-11-17, 09:54  like dislike  Spam?  
 #913921
4;newcallas: Thanks for your concluding comments! It's good to see the discussion back on track instead of chasing down a bogus "legal" point. Sounds like a good book, which makes translating it a little easier.
Antwort: 
Zu Last modified: 2019-11-16, 11:43  #913936
von Proteus-, 2019-11-18, 01:53  like dislike  Spam?  217.149.165....
Dann passt ja mein Vorschlag /2019-11-15, 14:45/ sehr gut.

Er wünscht ausdrücklich anzuerkennen, dass ... der Miturheber an den Tantiemen aliquot zu beteiligen ist, und zwar hinsichtlich des ihm bisher Entgangenen als auch in Bezug auf weitere Ansprüche aus der Verwertung.
Keineswegs ist gemeint, dass der Testator mit dem Anerkenntnis Dritte verpflichten will, was er nicht könnte.

Der Testator verlangt also nicht, wie in /Last modified: 2019-11-15, 19:31/ und /2019-11-15, 22:10/ unterstellt, dass irgendwelche Dritte die Miturheberschaft seines Partners anerkennen, sondern dass sein eigenes Anerkenntnis vor allem dem Miturheber gegenüber — aber auch beliebigen Dritten gegenüber — wirksam werde.

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