|Shame that we can’t agree on a definition for Unterleutnant.|
It is clearly a German word even though there is no such thing in the modern German army. Second lieutenant is the only sensible translation, but it has just been deleted again.
von Sasso', 2019-12-02, 09:20 Spam? 193.187.3...
You can make up lots of "German words", using "unter", like Untermitarbeiter or Unterfenster, but there is no reason why they should be recorded in a dictionary of existing words.
4;Sasso, but this word has its own Wikipedia article describing how it was and is used: Wikipedia(DE): Unterleutnant
von slowpoke, 2019-12-02, 11:59 Spam? 84.171.222...
tehe, two fools one thought, though Windfall was more quick
to me also seems the suggested translation in the Wikipedia article as sub-lietenant quite fitting.
yet still translating rank titles literally instead of referring to the comparable function in a hierarchy how it is used in that language of the audience may be of little use, except for a historical explanation referring to the original term, in that way as it is shown in the wikipedia article.
|This is the entry that is being talked about: ...||#914315|
I think that here, a somewhat less than perfect entry is better than just nothing.
Let users think themselves, let them look into the entry's history.
Perhaps Paul could find a way to encourage constructivity (suggestions for solutions and compromise) and discourage destructivity (mere deletion) and discouraging (outvotes for users who tried to find better suggestions)?
Unfortunately, only very few users know that it's possible to look into the entry's history. But if no verifiable translation can be found for a term, there is always the option of an explanation in square brackets on the other side.
Regarding constructivity/destructivity I think GL rule #3 is the best way to deal with that. Also deletions can be constructive if they avoid uncertainty about how to deal with a problematic suggestion. Endless, fruitless discussions may otherwise lead to frustration amongst contributors, causing more damage to the overall long-term development of the vocabulary.
|An explanation in square brackets on the EN side could solve the problem.||#914320|
I would prefer it to a translation, even if somewhat less perfect - as Halmafelix suggested.
And thanks, slowpoke, for the English Wiki link. I wonder why nobody of the supporters of the entry came up with it before. It would have clearified the situation way sooner and before the final Delete.
von Sasso', 2019-12-02, 17:11 Spam? 193.187.3...
It is nonsense for Wiki scribblers to claim that the German term "Unterleutnant" is used in Bulgaria and other Eastern European countries. There are ranks that have local names and are comparable to the historical rank of Unterleutnant, but who would really be interested in such a comparison? English translations in dict.cc are completely misleading unless they have long-winded explanatory notes.
4;Sasso: As for the present time, NATO military personnel would be interested. Granted, NATO seems to be on its last legs, but it's still out there and soldiers of many nations interact in many ways, including furnishing translations. Here's a commissioned officers' rank comparison chart of all land forces of NATO member states, including Bulgaria.
von Sasso', 2019-12-02, 17:35 Spam? 193.187.3...
A comparative study of military ranks throughout history is fine for a Bulgarian, but not for a native speaker of English using an English-German dictionary.
von Sasso', 2019-12-02, 17:52 Spam? 193.187.3...
"Unterleutnant" as mentioned in the above chart is utterly misleading. It's a translation of an existing Italian, Bulgarian or Russian rank and not a contemporary, existing rank name as you would expect the NATO chart to show.
Sasso, where do you see the Unterleutnant on the chart I linked? If you saw it in the Belgian Army listing, keep in mind the Belgian ranks are given in the three official languages of Belgium--Dutch, French and German. So a Belgian Army second lieutenant is an Unterleutnant in German. But perhaps I'm missing something.
|See my new square bracket entry.||#914353|
Still would have preferred a pithy approximate entry without the brackets.
von Sasso', 2019-12-03, 16:24 Spam? 193.187.3...
4;MichaelK: I was, in fact, referring to the Belgian rank and if Unterleutnant is an official term there it has to be accepted as such. The Wikipedia scribblers could and should have included it as an example of an existing rank instead of muddling the waters by talking about Italy and Russia. From a linguistic point of view, however, the Belgian use is again a translation from the dominant French or Flamish languages. The German community in Belgium accounts for only 0.7 per cent of the Belgian population and has no region of its own. So, it isn't a linguistic area in its own right. We have a similar situation in German-speaking South Tyrol, where you find lots of word-by-word translations from Italian in official contexts (e.g. Targa = registration plate or Stammrollenlehrer = tenure-track teacher)
Sasso, you're right about the entries for Italy and Russia confusing things. I felt that way on first viewing the NATO chart. Thanks for the information on Belgium and South Tyrol--learned something new again. The two examples are enlightening and amusing, and they illustrate your point of view well. Appreciate your response!.
|Pls have a look at Joergs comment in the re-open:||#914396|
Ich halte Joerg in Militärfragen für sehr kompetent.
|Joerg is certainly extremely competent on military questions||#914419|
But this is the sort of case that Voltaire warned us about. Letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. Unterleuntant is a word in the German language independent of its usage in past or present military rank systems, and -- as such- deserves a translation.
It appears in Schiller's work for example. Doesn't get more German than that.
|Newest entry also deleted||#914615|
I think it is time for you to suggest a translation for Unterleutnant since you have now quashed two alternate translations. Schiller used the word. It deserves a translation.
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